Challenging a Fare Demand

[455driver]

Did the OP purchase a valid ticket covering every part of the journey they made?

By what has been written it doesnt sound like it!

 

[andythebrave]

I may be missing something here but wasn't there an opportunity to buy a ticket at Brighton ticket office even though that would mean missing the next London service?

 

[bb21]

I may be missing something here but wasn't there an opportunity to buy a ticket at Brighton ticket office even though that would mean missing the next London service?

Previous correspondence with ATOC confirms that a passenger does not have to miss his connection in order to purchase a ticket.

That said, there is an argument to be made that this can indeed be interpreted as an opportunity, harsh as it might be. There is no consensus on this issue on the forum.

 

[tony6499]

Previous correspondence with ATOC confirms that a passenger does not have to miss his connection in order to purchase a ticket.

That said, there is an argument to be made that this can indeed be interpreted as an opportunity, harsh as it might be. There is no consensus on this issue on the forum.

Wouldn't the Conductor on board the train to Brighton be the first opportunity ? The OP hasn't mentioned about that and why he didn't

 

[Simon321456]

Wouldn't the Conductor on board the train to Brighton be the first opportunity ? The OP hasn't mentioned about that and why he didn't

Yes, the conductor on board WOULD have been the first opportunity, but there was none on! Or rather, I didn't find him. I didn't run the length of the train though I'll be honest

 

[Tetchytyke]

The Penalty Fare was overturned so arguments about the "first opportunity to pay" are irrelevant.

The issue is this: you travelled from Aldrington to London without paying. You subsequently bought a return ticket from Hove to London, but you no longer have this ticket in your possession, so you can't prove you bought it. You also don't have a ticket for the journey you made, as you don't hold nor have you bought a ticket from Aldrington to Hove.

I would suggest that you are liable for the fare from Aldrington to London, and that you might want to pay that sooner rather than later. It's up to you whether you want to pay the £60 in administrative charges.

 

[455driver]

Apologies for quoting myself but following on from Arctic Trolls post above-

Did the OP purchase a valid ticket covering every part of the journey they made?

By what has been written it doesnt sound like it!

 

[tony6499]

Yes, the conductor on board WOULD have been the first opportunity, but there was none on! Or rather, I didn't find him. I didn't run the length of the train though I'll be honest

So you didn't take the first opportunity to buy a ticket or even find out that you could do. There is a conductor on board every service to Brighton and as they are 3 coach 313 units very easy to find and I'd say the conductor would have been very happy to sell you your ticket if you had bothered to find him

 

[455driver]

I didn't run the length of the train though I'll be honest

All 3 coaches of it!

 

[transmanche]

So you didn't take the first opportunity to buy a ticket or even find out that you could do. There is a conductor on board every service to Brighton and as they are 3 coach 313 units very easy to find and I'd say the conductor would have been very happy to sell you your ticket if you had bothered to find him

Which brings us neatly to the old chestnut of whether it's a requirement for the passenger to locate the conductor, or if it's fine to wait for the conductor to come through the train.

 

[455driver]

In my mind although it isnt a requirement it could certainly save any issues later!

 

[Greenback]

It isn't a requirement but it may be a good thing to do. It depends on the ciorcumstance, if the train is packed I wouldn't, if I wanted to creat a good impression and make things as easy as I could I might.

 

[Simon321456]

So you didn't take the first opportunity to buy a ticket or even find out that you could do. There is a conductor on board every service to Brighton and as they are 3 coach 313 units very easy to find and I'd say the conductor would have been very happy to sell you your ticket if you had bothered to find him

You work for a train company and have specific knowledge of the journey presumably? So you KNOW that a conductor was on, and that it is my responsibility to find him?

Unfortunately, I'm just a passenger. I didn't KNOW that there was a conductor on, nor that I had to scour the train to find him. I did walk from the front of the train to the next coach where there were people blocking the route to the coach after that, and didn't find him

Which brings us neatly to the old chestnut of whether it's a requirement for the passenger to locate the conductor, or if it's fine to wait for the conductor to come through the train.

This. I know now because of this thread, but why would I do that when on every other service there are conductors checking tickets regularly? Not something I'll be doing again that's for sure

 

[transmanche]

Which brings us neatly to the old chestnut of whether it's a requirement for the passenger to locate the conductor, or if it's fine to wait for the conductor to come through the train.

This. I know now because of this thread, but why would I do that when on every other service there are conductors checking tickets regularly? Not something I'll be doing again that's for sure

Actually I was making an observation that it's not clear whether or not you do have actively seek out the conductor, or if you can wait for the conductor to come to you.

There's been plenty of discussion on here about this topic in the past - and there's no consensus on what is the correct thing to do.

 

[455driver]

3rd time of asking, any chance of this being answered-

Did the OP purchase a valid ticket covering every part of the journey they made?

By what has been written it doesnt sound like it!

There isnt requirement to find the conductor but-

To my mind if you cant manage the first then you should put some effort in on the train which will show your intention to pay, failing to buy before boarding and then getting on the train as far away from the conductor as possible does make it sound a bit fishy!

 

[Greenback]

There is no requirement to find the condutor on the train but there is a requirement to purchase a ticket before getting on the train!

...where ticket issuing facilities are available!

 

[455driver]

...where ticket issuing facilities are available!

Obviously, it would be rather difficult to purchase a ticket where no facilities exist.

 

[Simon321456]

3rd time of asking, any chance of this being answered-


There isnt requirement to find the conductor but-

To my mind if you cant manage the first then you should put some effort in on the train which will show your intention to pay, failing to buy before boarding and then getting on the train as far away from the conductor as possible does make it sound a bit fishy!

Hang on, I'm supposed to guess what part of the train a conductor might be standing in?! It gets worse!!

In answer, I purchased a ticket later that day as I needed to get home. I bought a return ticket with the assumption that this would negate the need to purchase 2x single tickets, which would obviously be stupid, but what is apparently what I have now been forced to do

 

[Clip]

Hang on, I'm supposed to guess what part of the train a conductor might be standing in?! It gets worse!!

In answer, I purchased a ticket later that day as I needed to get home. I bought a return ticket with the assumption that this would negate the need to purchase 2x single tickets, which would obviously be stupid, but what is apparently what I have now been forced to do

to be fair you will be able to see him, he's the guy on the platform in company uniform by the back or middle or even front of the train looking back.

Theyre quite easy to spot as they get off the train then get back on it.

 

[transmanche]

to be fair you will be able to see him, he's the guy on the platform in company uniform by the back or middle or even front of the train looking back.

Theyre quite easy to spot as they get off the train then get back on it.

And to be even fairer, most passengers will be busy locating the nearest door and then boarding the train and finding a seat - not looking around to see if there's a conductor and where he might be. (And for those used to trains where the driver takes care of the doors, they wouldn't even expect someone in company uniform "to get off the train then get back on it".

 

[MyFriendMary]

In answer, I purchased a ticket later that day as I needed to get home. I bought a return ticket with the assumption that this would negate the need to purchase 2x single tickets, which would obviously be stupid, but what is apparently what I have now been forced to do

But you didn't buy a ticket from Aldrington -> Clapham RTN at Clapham but instead a ticket to/from Hove which doesn't cover you for the full length of the journey that you had previously made.

 

[Clip]

And to be even fairer, most passengers will be busy locating the nearest door and then boarding the train and finding a seat - not looking around to see if there's a conductor and where he might be. (And for those used to trains where the driver takes care of the doors, they wouldn't even expect someone in company uniform "to get off the train then get back on it".

Maybe if I mentioned he would have a flag and a hat like I was going to do then your sarcasm radar wouldve worked a bit better.

 

[transmanche]

Maybe if I mentioned he would have a flag and a hat like I was going to do then your sarcasm radar wouldve worked a bit better.

Probably!

 

[Greenback]

To be even fairer, it's not uncommon, at least in these parts, for conductors not to have a flag, or hat or an easily identifiable uniform. They wear what can be taken to be plain white shirts and dark trousers, with small company logo's on them not easily identifiable from a distance. They may have a jumper, but that is not likely unless it is very, very cold. Jackets are never worn, even if it is poruing with rain, sleeting, or snowing.

Whistles are usually carried, though, I'm pleased to confirm!

 

[tony6499]

You work for a train company and have specific knowledge of the journey presumably? So you KNOW that a conductor was on, and that it is my responsibility to find him?

There is a conductor on every train on that route, if you got on the middle coach you were about 20 yards or less away from him as he is situated by the door controls in the centre of the train.

If you haven't got a ticket it is your responsibility to buy a ticket at the first opportunity and you didn't.

 

[Simon321456]

to be fair you will be able to see him, he's the guy on the platform in company uniform by the back or middle or even front of the train looking back.

Theyre quite easy to spot as they get off the train then get back on it.

I've honestly never once seen a conductor get off and then back on, although as someone else alluded to, its not something I'm particularly looking for!

But you didn't buy a ticket from Aldrington -> Clapham RTN at Clapham but instead a ticket to/from Hove which doesn't cover you for the full length of the journey that you had previously made.

Yes, I agree. This was an error. But as opposed to me paying the difference, I have to pay the entire thing over again. Nice

There is a conductor on every train on that route, if you got on the middle coach you were about 20 yards or less away from him as he is situated by the door controls in the centre of the train.

If you haven't got a ticket it is your responsibility to buy a ticket at the first opportunity and you didn't.

Like I said Tony, if there was, then it wasn't obvious. I told you already I got on right at the front, and I walked through to the next coach. He wasn't there, unless he was cunningly disguised as a regular person in order to stop pesky scammers like me from using this terrible excuse not to buy a ticket

So, I'll repeat once more, with feeling:

There was no opportunity to buy a ticket

The fact that you somehow know that there was a conductor on board and in full view of the world doesn't change the fact that the person on the train (that's me for the record) was unable to locate him

Maybe he was chatting to the driver, or having a poo, or maybe he was curled up in a ball crying over yet another rail abuser.

Or maybe, just maybe, there wasn't a conductor on at all. And if there was, he wasn't in either of the coaches I checked on the 7 minute journey

 

[MyFriendMary]

Yes, I agree. This was an error. But as opposed to me paying the difference, I have to pay the entire thing over again. Nice

Unfortunately it might work out to be an expensive error since, in the TOCs eyes, you've not paid the full price of the ticket that you should have bought at the station where you started your journey.

If you had bought at Clapham an Aldrington -> Clapham RTN [I.e. Clapham -> Aldrington would have been the ticket you used later on in the day] then, I would guess, the matter would have been dropped. Especially since you would still have the Aldrington -> Clapham portion of the ticket which would prove, at the first possible opportunity [minus the conductor] you bought the ticket that you were intending to buy.

Unfortunately, if you let this go all the way to the Courts, the TOC would simply point out that you never bought a ticket that covered the FULL portion of the journey that you made earlier in the day. Yes, it sucks that they aren't allowing you to 'excess' the amount already paid with the amount outstanding, but since you no longer own the tickets that you did buy at Clapham [unless I have missed something] then how does the TOC know that you did?

Personally I'd bite the bullet as a means to avoid it going to the Courts

 

[455driver]

If there wasnt a Conductor on board then the train would not be allowed to carry passengers as neither the train or route is set up for DOO operation, so yes we are 100% certain there was a Conductor on board.

If you dont agree then dont pay and when you are in Court see if the Magistrate agrees with you!
You are not compelled to pay.

As for the rest of your sarcastic post I wont comment! :roll:

 

[Flamingo]

Methinks the OP doth protest too much...

 

[Simon321456]

If there wasnt a Conductor on board then the train would not be allowed to carry passengers as neither the train or route is set up for DOO operation, so yes we are 100% certain there was a Conductor on board.

If you dont agree then dont pay and when you are in Court see if the Magistrate agrees with you!
You are not compelled to pay.

As for the rest of your sarcastic post I wont comment! :roll:

Spelling has a G on the end

I don't know why you are so spectacularly failing to acknowledge what I'm saying. If there was a conductor on board, he was not visible to the naked eye. The end

Methinks the OP doth protest too much...

Au contraire, I think I've actually been fairly pragmatic about the whole thing. I just wanted people's opinions that are in the industry, as I truly and honestly feel like I've been very harshly treated.
I totally understand and (as a regular traveller disgusted by the constant fare increases) agree with the reasoning behind the rules and regulations concerning rail travel; but the lack of transparency of said rules, coupled with the absolute non uniformity of them should, in my opinion, result in a modicum of give and take. This is/was a genuine fault of the train company and I'm being penalised because of technicalities.

Unfortunately it might work out to be an expensive error since, in the TOCs eyes, you've not paid the full price of the ticket that you should have bought at the station where you started your journey.

If you had bought at Clapham an Aldrington -> Clapham RTN [I.e. Clapham -> Aldrington would have been the ticket you used later on in the day] then, I would guess, the matter would have been dropped. Especially since you would still have the Aldrington -> Clapham portion of the ticket which would prove, at the first possible opportunity [minus the conductor] you bought the ticket that you were intending to buy.

Unfortunately, if you let this go all the way to the Courts, the TOC would simply point out that you never bought a ticket that covered the FULL portion of the journey that you made earlier in the day. Yes, it sucks that they aren't allowing you to 'excess' the amount already paid with the amount outstanding, but since you no longer own the tickets that you did buy at Clapham [unless I have missed something] then how does the TOC know that you did?

Personally I'd bite the bullet as a means to avoid it going to the Courts

Yep, agree with all that again. Sigh

I've paid the charge anyway. I didn't fancy going to court too much

But I am going to make it my life's ambition to get every penny back and will be voicing my extreme dissatisfaction wherever I possibly can