Challenge to Fareham - Gosport guided busway fails

[Drsatan]

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/8212614.Bus_route_appeal_thrown_out/?ref=mr

Note that the judge who threw out the defendent's appeal states that 'In 1969 Lord Beeching caused the closure of the 128-year-old railway line between Fareham and Gosport'.

Dr Beeching never recieved a peerage, he was not head of BRB in 1969 so he could not have closed the line, and passenger trains had ceased running from Fareham to Gosport in 1953. The line closed when freight trains stopped using it in 1969 (although a stub serving Bedenham armaments depot remained in operation until the late 1980s). I would expect a judge to at least know his facts about the case!!

 

[Geezertronic]

Dr Beeching never recieved a peerage

If the Wikipedia article is correct:

Richard Beeching, Baron Beeching (21 April 1913 – 23 March 1985), commonly known as Doctor Beeching.....
..In the 1965 birthday honours he was made a life peer as Baron Beeching, of East Grinstead in the county of Sussex...

 

[fgwrich]

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/8212614.Bus_route_appeal_thrown_out/?ref=mr

Note that the judge who threw out the defendent's appeal states that 'In 1969 Lord Beeching caused the closure of the 128-year-old railway line between Fareham and Gosport'.

Dr Beeching never recieved a peerage, he was not head of BRB in 1969 so he could not have closed the line, and passenger trains had ceased running from Fareham to Gosport in 1953. The line closed when freight trains stopped using it in 1969 (although a stub serving Bedenham armaments depot remained in operation until the late 1980s). I would expect a judge to at least know his facts about the case!!

Still is a sad case though, that a route that once was a railway, has to be converted into another concreate slab mess that is a Guided Busway....

Albiet this time things seem to have changed, what once was to be a guided busway, now just appears to be a brand new road...

It seems Hampshire Country Council arnt up for suggestions and are sadly stuck on building roads & buses, rather than investing in railways and light railways... i did write them a letter a year or so ago actually suggesting a Tram Train or Croyden Tramlink style service is provided instead, thus keeping the trackbed and route in tact, with plently of other reasons thrown in...including :

Not building the long proposed light rail tunnel under portsmouth harbour and instead building a tram line from the former Gosport route to the ferry terminal & Gosport Town Centre.

Serving HMS Collingwood along the way, thus giving the potential for NR Apprentices to potentially work on the line as part of the training...

Building most of the route in Single track but with passing loops at several stations en route...

exntending the route from Fareham station down to the town centre - a fair distance from the station instelf... - potentially in a loop style, so that it runs to the station first, then double backs on itself to go under the NR Line towards the town centre...

And then theres the benifits of Trams Vs Buses - how long does a tram last, at least 30-40 years, how long do most modern buses last? 15-20...

Which is also more greener - a electricity using Tram, or a fossil fuel burning bus...

And one of my final points was the infrastructure - almsot all the railway infrastructure was there, as apposed to the cost of the newer infrastructure which will have to be built...

anyway...have to go...but how i feel about it...

 

[PhilipW]

Still is a sad case though, that a route that once was a railway, has to be converted into another concreate slab mess that is a Guided Busway.

It is not going to be a guided busway (like the Cambridge - St Ives disaster). It is just going to be a busway i.e a normal road that just buses can use.

 

[Greenback]

It's still yet another piece of concrete to be filled up with fossil fuel guzzling, atmosphere polluting vehicles!

 

[swt_passenger]

It's still yet another piece of concrete to be filled up with fossil fuel guzzling, atmosphere polluting vehicles!

No it isn't. All the buses that use it will be diverted off their existing routes that use the congested A32.

Can an admin amend the thread title please, it ISNT a guided busway.

 

[GearJammer]

Does'nt matter wether you call it a guided bus way, a bus lane, or rapid transport route.......... whatever you call it its a waste of money, i'll NEVER use it, it should stay as a railway..... or be rebuilt as a railway whichever way you wanna look at it!

Theres a pic in todays Portsmouth news of the vegetation cleared and the track still in situ.......... its just missing a train coming into view!

Taking buses off the A32 will not cure the congestion problems, people are not traveling up the A32 to get to Fareham in the rush hour, there heading to the motorway (M27) and Southampton and Portsmouth and further affield, it should remain as a railway so trains from Gosport can connect and join up with train services at Fareham to go further affield!

Thats my point of view anyway!

 

[Greenback]

No it isn't. All the buses that use it will be diverted off their existing routes that use the congested A32.

Can an admin amend the thread title please, it ISNT a guided busway.

So the A32 will not stay congested due to mroe people deciding to drive on it as the buses will no longer be holding it up? I don;t think so somehow. All research and experience has shown that builidng new roads does not reduce congestion at all. In fact it does the opposite, since fewer people are motivated to elave their cars at home because the roads are full.

 

[Ivo]

...and all this, because some southern idiots don't see rail as a viable provision? Here's me thinking that Gosport could do with a better service than a bus to Fareham or a ferry to Portsmouth

 

[thefab444]

I imagine it's more to do with the cost.

The people complaining, under a veil of "protecting bats", really just don't want a road in their back gardens. Hardly a grounds to complain given that they live next to a main road anyway, and aren't exactly in one of the south's most attractive towns!

 

[Greenback]

I must admit I've seen more attractive places...

 

[GearJammer]

The people complaining, under a veil of "protecting bats", really just don't want a road in their back gardens. Hardly a grounds to complain given that they live next to a main road anyway

Fair comment but lets be honest, would you want the A32 running past ya front door and buses roaring past ya back door???????? i would'nt

 

[thefab444]

No I wouldn't, but seeing as the A32 is already past their front doors, the buses aren't going to make much of a difference noise wise.

I'm sure they'd complain regardless of the scheme, heavy rail, tramway or busway.

 

[GearJammer]

I'm sure they'd complain regardless of the scheme, heavy rail, tramway or busway.

Sadly your probably right, but i still stick with what i said about it should be restored as a railway. People are'nt going to Fareham, there heading to the motorway!

 

[thefab444]

The difficulty with a railway is you'd need to provide at least 2tph, one to Southampton, and one to Eastleigh or preferably Winchester, for connections to London. There's not really an existing service that could be diverted or extended to Gosport.

 

[GearJammer]

Yeah but i was thinking that ok if you have two an hour from Gosport, one could join/couple up with a portsmouth-southampton service at Fareham, the second could join/couple up to a Portsmouth-Waterloo via Eastleigh service (plus the opposite for southbound journeys), maybe even with a third service shuttling back and forth between Gosport and Fareham, im sure it could be done if the will power and money was available.

 

[thefab444]

Yes but the stock requirements for that are huge; it means every train between Waterloo and Fareham and Southampton and Fareham need to be formed of at least two 450s. I reckon for that you'd need upwards of 10 extra 450s.

Add to the cost of building a new station in Gosport, and the costs are soaring.

 

[GearJammer]

Oh yeah i know................. but you know what they say, if a jobs worth doing.....

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely the aim is to improve the bus service between Gosport and Fareham by removing IT from the A32. People don't use the bus to get to the motorway do they? AIUI it isn't intended to make things easier for motorists heading for Portsmouth by road, it's to make things easier for bus passengers.

 

[GearJammer]

My understanding of it was that the bus would have a rapid fast uninterupted run from gosport into fareham, meaning people would choose to use it instead of there cars, but like i said, people are'nt driving to Fareham, there driving to the motorway, so a bus that goes to Fareham is'nt any use to anyone who wants to go further affield, if they really want to improve the road they need to demolish the railway viaduct at Fareham and completely remodel Farehams Quat street roundabout, the traffic needs to flow up the A32 and straight out onto the motorway!

 

[Greenback]

If the intention was to improve the journey for bus users, then they could simply put bus lanes in, as has been done here. It's amazing how more people will use the bus when they are stuck in traffic and buses sail past theme very few minutes.

No, this scheme is nothing to do with improving public transport at all!

 

[Mojo]

I don't know how this scheme is to be funded, but if it's under RFA then all schemes have in effect been postponed indefinitely by the DfT in an announcement this week.

The above poster is right, this scheme will do nothing to encourage modal shift and will, in reality do very little.

One of the main reasons for this is the lack of a level playing field in terms of funding; road based schemes are entitled to 90% whereas rail only gets 75%. Given the operating costs of rail are already lower than of buses, and there are other huge advantages to rail that you do not get with buses, it really should be the other way around!

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't know how this scheme is to be funded, but if it's under RFA then all schemes have in effect been postponed indefinitely by the DfT in an announcement this week.

Funding is shared between DfT/DCLG under the Community Infrastructure Fund and was confirmed as £20m March 2009. I emailed transport for South Hants yesterday, they replied this afternoon saying the scheme is going ahead, they have not heard any different.

My reading of the recent government announcement was that work that is started still carries on?

 

[Mojo]

My reading of the recent government announcement was that work that is started still carries on?

It depends on whether work has started that is funded under the RFA or not; eg. Luton to Dunstable loony busway work has already started, but the funding is not yet secured.

 

[Lawley]

I've just been talking to my friend who works for First who are going top be providing the sheds, sorry i mean "high quality buses" sorry can't keep a straight face saying that , for this scheme, apparently the 82 and 83 bus routes are going to continue going up and down the A32 while there will be a new 84 bus route that runs down this transit scheme, I watched the video earlier and i find it very strange that ther spending out all this money knocking down Wych lane bridge and turning it into a flat traffic light controlled cross roads when surely leaving the bridge in place would be cheaper? surely a 400 tonne train weighs more then the heaviest fully loaded double decker (roughly 15-18tonnes max inc pasengers) bus? so it's not wieght thats a problem and if only buses are using it traffic can't be a problem, it's straight and not a blind crest, it's flat.
The other bit that makes me laugh is where the junctions are makes no sense at all, tichbourne way is about 3/4 of a mile too far north to skip a load of congestion and palmeston drive coming from fareham still has the A32 to travel down over quay street roundabout, then the congested bit of gosport road over the mill road roundabout and under newgate lane.
Well that and the extension north to railway station makes me laugh as almost everyone who is catching a train goes to gosport over the ferry into portsmouth hard, noone goes up to fareham station.
The other proposal that is mentioned is getting a bus on one side to the ferry then going over on it and catching a bus on the otherside with one ticket, you can pretty much do this already, you can stick to just first using a first day/week/month/3-month/year hampshire ticket or daily/weekly solent travel cards which let you use all the operators in the solent area, you just need to get the ferry companies 12 trips for 10 ticket (or whatever it is).

The other thing that i love is that for 4 years i had a free bus pass. I cycled to work it was faster, Gosport to Hoeford, i can't see this being an improvement in journey times, especially as cycles can go over the millenium bridge at priddy's hard then straight up the link road to A32 and then up the main road. If your going further then fareham the bus is still too slow uncomfortable and expensive so people will stick to there cars.

 

[Drsatan]

I've just been talking to my friend who works for First who are going top be providing the sheds, sorry i mean "high quality buses" sorry can't keep a straight face saying that , for this scheme, apparently the 82 and 83 bus routes are going to continue going up and down the A32 while there will be a new 84 bus route that runs down this transit scheme, I watched the video earlier and i find it very strange that ther spending out all this money knocking down Wych lane bridge and turning it into a flat traffic light controlled cross roads when surely leaving the bridge in place would be cheaper? surely a 400 tonne train weighs more then the heaviest fully loaded double decker (roughly 15-18tonnes max inc pasengers) bus? so it's not wieght thats a problem and if only buses are using it traffic can't be a problem, it's straight and not a blind crest, it's flat.
The other bit that makes me laugh is where the junctions are makes no sense at all, tichbourne way is about 3/4 of a mile too far north to skip a load of congestion and palmeston drive coming from fareham still has the A32 to travel down over quay street roundabout, then the congested bit of gosport road over the mill road roundabout and under newgate lane.
Well that and the extension north to railway station makes me laugh as almost everyone who is catching a train goes to gosport over the ferry into portsmouth hard, noone goes up to fareham station.
The other proposal that is mentioned is getting a bus on one side to the ferry then going over on it and catching a bus on the otherside with one ticket, you can pretty much do this already, you can stick to just first using a first day/week/month/3-month/year hampshire ticket or daily/weekly solent travel cards which let you use all the operators in the solent area, you just need to get the ferry companies 12 trips for 10 ticket (or whatever it is).

The other thing that i love is that for 4 years i had a free bus pass. I cycled to work it was faster, Gosport to Hoeford, i can't see this being an improvement in journey times, especially as cycles can go over the millenium bridge at priddy's hard then straight up the link road to A32 and then up the main road. If your going further then fareham the bus is still too slow uncomfortable and expensive so people will stick to there cars.

Exactly! This misGuided busway will do very little to solve congestion. Whenever a bus leaves the guided busway it's still going to get stuck in traffic. Not to mention that running lots of buses in close succession is not as efficient as running a half-hourly train service.

I've read that the trackbed has been cleared - have the contractors started laying the concrete? I wouldn't be surprised if the busway is canned altogether if whatever method of funding it uses is scrapped.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wouldn't be surprised if the busway is canned altogether if whatever method of funding it uses is scrapped.

The funding hasn't been scrapped, as I said about three posts ago, following an emailed response from Hants CC...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...I watched the video earlier and i find it very strange that ther spending out all this money knocking down Wych lane bridge and turning it into a flat traffic light controlled cross roads when surely leaving the bridge in place would be cheaper?

The purpose of the junction there is to allow buses to join the busway after travelling round Bridgemary - that's why it has to be lowered. Joining/leaving the busway at high level would require extra land take and demolition. Your friend's suggestion that only one route will use the busway is wrong, I think, they are talking about four different routes using the busway.

The other bit that makes me laugh is where the junctions are makes no sense at all, ... and palmeston drive coming from fareham still has the A32 to travel down over quay street roundabout, then the congested bit of gosport road over the mill road roundabout and under newgate lane.

Palmerston Drive isn't the end of the busway, the buses stay on the main route to the junction on Redlands Lane, heading towards the station, and West St. This is made clear in the description of Phase 1:

In the short term services using Phase 1 of the scheme will connect back into the existing highway at Redlands Lane, at the northern end, to access the A27 and travel east via stops at Fareham Railway Station to Fareham town centre thus avoiding the A32 and Quay Street roundabout and associated delays on the current route.

This is easily found on HCC's website, but the route is shown in the video as well.

The flat junction at Palmerston Drive is at the lower level specifically so that it avoids a flat crossing of the main traffic flow along Newgate Lane, ie at the position of the existing rail level crossing.

I don't disagree at all with your basic expectation that buses will simply bypass road sections and queue somewhere else, for what it's worth.

I just think some of your facts needed correcting...

 

[paul1609]

If the intention was to improve the journey for bus users, then they could simply put bus lanes in, as has been done here. It's amazing how more people will use the bus when they are stuck in traffic and buses sail past theme very few minutes.

No, this scheme is nothing to do with improving public transport at all!

Unfortunately the A32 to Gosport is only a 2 lane road with a cycle lane its not wide enough to support bus lanes except for the short stretch of dual carriageway south of the A27.
In the peaks traffic is queueing for up to 2 miles to get on to the dual carriageway and the current bus services just queue with the traffic making journey time unacceptable.
There are currently no through services between Fareham Railway Station and Gosport. The Gosport buses terminate at Gosport Bus Station which is over half a mile to the west of the railway station.

This scheme will in my opinion be a huge improvement to public transport in the area.

 

[Matt Taylor]

This issue has gone back to the courts again, the supreme court will make a decision on the matter in due course. The resident that is continuing to fight the BRT system is rapidly becoming a local pariah due to the excessive amounts of council taxpayers money being used to finance the council's defence, she is also being accused of delaying tactics as the moneyfor the scheme is only guarenteed until March 31st 2011.

 

[Metroland]

Well there's bound to be a backlash you don't *need* a separate right of way for a bus, that's all paid for by car drivers, it's called a highway. Standard bus lanes will give you a better flow, or more flexibility, and they can be added onto standard roads, at less cost and opened up to cars off peak.

Yes, you might get slightly more passengers because of the novelty of it, but I dare say no more than if the same money spent was used to reduce ticket prices and integrate with rail.

Certainly if the £160 million they spent on the Cambridge one went into £80 million for re-opening the railway (which at least can offer high speeds and the advantage of a network with passenger rights, plus carry freight) and £80 million for very cheap integrated bus tickets across the country, it would achieve far more than the busway where they prices of the tickets are going to be higher, despite the massive public subsidy, and the journey time just as long as the current St Ives to Cambo Whippet.