Census 2021: any comments?

[Typhoon]

I do believe that I put my nationality (or it could have been ethnicity) as 'Lancastrian' on the last census. It was not questioned or followed up, nor was I fined.

Why should you be? If that's how you feel.

The support for the question 'How would you describe your national identity' gives:-

If yours isn't listed, select "Other" and enter your national identity in the space provided, such as Cornish, Irish, Polish or Indian. You can give more than one answer if you want to.

If they are giving 'Cornish' as an example, then 'Lancastrian' will do fine. I believe there is scope in the above for just about anything discussed in this thread. (And note the use of the word 'your').

I contacted the webchat about something I was not certain about and I wanted clarification (it was a factual question and I wanted to know what was meant by a particular phrase), the response was it was up to my interpretation so I would think the chance of anyone being fined is pretty slim unless someone really lies through their teeth.

 

[Nicholas43]

Q43: Briefly describe what you do/did in your main job : gives an opportunity for amusingly honest answers ...

 

[peters]

Have previous censuses always asked for students to be recorded both home and away? I was never a student and hadn’t actually noticed before...

I think normally it's only been where you've been on census day, which for university students has been their term time address. However, this time there's been concerns from MPs representing university towns about whether they'll end up losing a lot of funding based on lower census population figures. Lancaster apparently has a student population which is higher than the number of permanent residents and Cambridge would be another place that would do very badly if normal term time residents weren't counted. The counter argument is normally places like Lancaster and Cambridge got more than their fair share of funding due to the student population being counted in the same way as permanent residents.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

How does anyone completing the census return now already, know for sure that there won't be any change(s) before Sunday 21st March 2021? Such as births, deaths, working away from home, etc. ?

Coming back late to this point it occurs to me that 10 years ago, and depending upon exact dates, I could have completed the form online quite honestly as 'full time employed' but was actually 'unemployed' on the census date itself. I was at risk of redundancy but it was not confirmed. Small beer in the overall scheme of things, but not to me!

 

[Purple Orange]

I do believe that I put my nationality (or it could have been ethnicity) as 'Lancastrian' on the last census. It was not questioned or followed up, nor was I fined.

In the spirit of the OP, what is a Lancastrian nationality or identity?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

In the spirit of the OP, what is a Lancastrian nationality or identity?

We could disappear down a rabbit hole here.

I would say that identity is in ones head and/or heart.

A country is merely arbitrary lines drawn on a map, with one set of laws governing one side of the line compared with a different set of laws on the other side. Look at the many conflict situations in the world where an ethnic group lives on both sides of a border and want independence from both. The argument for an integrated Europe is to remove those borders, and therefore the conflicts - we had a couple of major ones in the last century!

Great Britain, as with any island, does not fit that mould as it's borders are quite firmly established, them being a bit on the wet and salty side - nothwithstanding internal sub-divisions / nations.

People either side of a border will have more in common with each other than with those at the opposite end of the same country. Do the people of Yorkshire have closer ties with Lancashire or Cornwall? Do the Pennine Hill folk of Lancashire and Yorkshire have more in common with each other than with their sand grown 'uns in Blackpool and Hull respectively?

My view of the census generally is that it now asks far too many, often irrelevant questions. I know the topic is discussed by stakeholders at length, with debates between those who want to take advantage of the survey to ask as much as possible, against those who want to keep it short and simple in order to encourage its completion.

How many people live in a house, their age and occupation is relevant. Just what policy decisions will be influenced by peoples divulging of their religion, sexual orientation, thoughts on their nationality and ethnicity etc. I don't know. I saw no discernible benefit from declaring my household as being carless - there hasn't been a sudden rush to provide more buses to my area on the back of all the censuses that I have completed, nor has there been a determined effort to retain existing services, quite the opposite in fact.

I haven't yet had my invitation to complete, I will be filling it in honestly, as people should, but I will be also be leaving blanks and my own interpretation of certain questions. Do I feel persecuted by the government, not daring to leave my house in case I am stopped by the police and questioned about my movements? Yes, well I must be black Irish or something then.

 

[XAM2175]

Just what policy decisions will be influenced by peoples divulging of their religion, sexual orientation, thoughts on their nationality and ethnicity etc. I don't know. I saw no discernible benefit from declaring my household as being carless - there hasn't been a sudden rush to provide more buses to my area on the back of all the censuses that I have completed, nor has there been a determined effort to retain existing services, quite the opposite in fact.

The fact that you don't personally see change - let alone "discernible benefit" - from giving a particular answer doesn't mean the answer isn't of value. The census provides the data; your problem is in how that data is or isn't being used.

Do I feel persecuted by the government, not daring to leave my house in case I am stopped by the police and questioned about my movements? Yes, well I must be black Irish or something then.

This is relevant... how, exactly?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That's a bit like saying people who are given a custodial sentence are invited to prison

Well, prisoners are sometimes referred to colloquially as "Her Majesty's Houseguests".

 

[peters]

Coming back late to this point it occurs to me that 10 years ago, and depending upon exact dates, I could have completed the form online quite honestly as 'full time employed' but was actually 'unemployed' on the census date itself. I was at risk of redundancy but it was not confirmed. Small beer in the overall scheme of things, but not to me!

10 years ago it would have been possible for you to be unemployed pre-census date, get a temp job at an event for a few days including on census date and then be unemployed again post-census date.

 

[Horizon22]

I think normally it's only been where you've been on census day, which for university students has been their term time address. However, this time there's been concerns from MPs representing university towns about whether they'll end up losing a lot of funding based on lower census population figures. Lancaster apparently has a student population which is higher than the number of permanent residents and Cambridge would be another place that would do very badly if normal term time residents weren't counted. The counter argument is normally places like Lancaster and Cambridge got more than their fair share of funding due to the student population being counted in the same way as permanent residents.

There's also the fact that in Covid times, more students might be at home who would otherwise be at uni accomodation.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The counter argument is normally places like Lancaster and Cambridge got more than their fair share of funding due to the student population being counted in the same way as permanent residents.

I don't understand this argument that students shouldn't be counted as permanent residents.
Over a 3 year course, in normal (non covid) times, a student will likely spend around at least 24 out of 36 months in their university town (quite often more than that).
I'd say that is enough time to warrant having an interest in the area, especially given that a lot of students end up then living in their university town post graduation (especially true of the bigger cities).
So why shouldn't someone who is essentially resident in a town for 2 years out of 3 and may end up living their properly after their degree have less say in how an area is defined compared to a "permanent" resident (who may moved away after just living there for a year).

 

[RT4038]

How many people live in a house, their age and occupation is relevant. Just what policy decisions will be influenced by peoples divulging of their religion, sexual orientation, thoughts on their nationality and ethnicity etc. I don't know. I saw no discernible benefit from declaring my household as being carless - there hasn't been a sudden rush to provide more buses to my area on the back of all the censuses that I have completed, nor has there been a determined effort to retain existing services, quite the opposite in fact.

Perhaps there were so few describing themselves as 'carless' that the service provision was thought to be already adequate, or even over generous in your case?

I would imagine the questions on religion, sexual orientation, nationality, ethnicity etc are to judge the efficacy of arguments by one group or another that they are hard done to or discriminated against etc. If Govt. don't have some statistics they can't hope to be fair.

 

[peters]

I don't understand this argument that students shouldn't be counted as permanent residents.
Over a 3 year course, in normal (non covid) times, a student will likely spend around at least 24 out of 36 months in their university town (quite often more than that).
I'd say that is enough time to warrant having an interest in the area, especially given that a lot of students end up then living in their university town post graduation (especially true of the bigger cities).
So why shouldn't someone who is essentially resident in a town for 2 years out of 3 and may end up living their properly after their degree have less say in how an area is defined compared to a "permanent" resident (who may moved away after just living there for a year).

A lot of students will also sign tenancy agreements which are for around 39 weeks, meaning for 25% of the year they are living elsewhere. Those staying in halls of residence in touristy places might even sign an agreement which requires them to leave their premises empty over Christmas and Easter, making it more like 33 weeks (22.8 months over a 3 year course.)

As well as there being towns and cities which have a high number of students during term times, there are boroughs which don't have any universities but have a high number of students over holiday periods. I think the fairest method is to say 100 students at a term time address is equivalent to 75 permanent residents and 100 students at their home address (when they live away during term time) is equivalent to 25 permanent residents. The places students are likely to be during the holidays are likely to be more rural so in need of funding for things like public transport.

Also worth noting some international students won't go home over Christmas and Easter but will only be in the country for around 9 months in total for an exchange year, while some UK students will go home every weekend and depending on lecture times that might be a long weekend each time e.g. if they have no formal lectures on Friday afternoon or Monday morning.

Perhaps there were so few describing themselves as 'carless' that the service provision was thought to be already adequate, or even over generous in your case?

I would imagine the questions on religion, sexual orientation, nationality, ethnicity etc are to judge the efficacy of arguments by one group or another that they are hard done to or discriminated against etc. If Govt. don't have some statistics they can't hope to be fair.

If you ever apply for a role with the BBC you'll find there's a question on the Equal Opportunities form, which only applies to vacancies based in Northern Ireland and asks if you're either Protestant or Catholic, presumably so they have evidence if one group complains they are being properly represented.

 

[birchesgreen]

My letter has arrived, i wonder if everyone does it online on March 21 the servers can cope?

 

[peteb]

As someone who relies heavily on 100 year old census documents for family history research I hope people will fill it in to assist those in the future. But rather bizarrely this time it seems there will be double accounting with people in care homes also being counted at their spouses home, and students included twice. Historically it was always a record of whoever stayed in the house overnight, so if you were visiting relatives you went on their record and were not recorded at your own house! But that method did give an accurate head count for population statistics.

 

[MikeWh]

As someone who relies heavily on 100 year old census documents for family history research I hope people will fill it in to assist those in the future. But rather bizarrely this time it seems there will be double accounting with people in care homes also being counted at their spouses home, and students included twice. Historically it was always a record of whoever stayed in the house overnight, so if you were visiting relatives you went on their record and were not recorded at your own house! But that method did give an accurate head count for population statistics.

The fact that they are being recorded twice is recorded on each record, so the person will not be double counted for overall statistics. They will show when broken down into local authority statistics which is relevant for local decisions.

 

[Ianno87]

Just filled it in online for our household. Dead easy, and only took 10 minutes. Better than a faffy paper form with "answer this question, go to Q72, roll a 6, do not pass Go, etc"

 

[nlogax]

Just filled it in online for our household. Dead easy, and only took 10 minutes.

Did mine in 5 mins.. but then again it's just me here

 

[Domh245]

Just filled it in online for our household. Dead easy, and only took 10 minutes. Better than a faffy paper form with "answer this question, go to Q72, roll a 6, do not pass Go, etc"

It was completed online here too. One thing that I subsequently discovered is that it is possible to request a private census code, to allow you to complete your own details online separately if so desired. Very useful if (for example) your family are watching over you or answering on your behalf and you want to correct your answers for questions like religion, sexuality, or gender identity. It's a shame that this isn't more widely publicised really.

How to request a paper census - Census 2021

census.gov.uk

 

[3rd rail land]

My letter has arrived, i wonder if everyone does it online on March 21 the servers can cope?

One of my colleagues thought it has to be done on 21st March or as soon as possible thereafter. Seems like that is a deadline rather than the date it must be filled out on. The letter does say on 21st March or as soon as possible after.

 

[A Challenge]

One of my colleagues thought it has to be done on 21st March or as soon as possible thereafter. Seems like that is a deadline rather than the date it must be filled out on. The letter does say on 21st March or as soon as possible after.

I thought it was the date on which the answers were based (for example if you're made redundant you will need to go back and edit it), but I think you as can fill it out online therefore you can edit it again much easier then the paper form used previously of you'd already posted it.

 

[EssexGonzo]

Of course it is. It is just as silly and designed to be "clever" or trendy. It is meaningless nonsense designed to deliver a toothless political point. I think Brexit is wrong but this wont have any impact on that decision or move anyone closer to reversing it.

I would tend to disagree that doing so is “silly” or based on the need to be “trendy” or “clever”.

There are a great many people in this country who feel that the fraud perpetrated on the country - called Brexit - should not be accepted. Given that the census is owned by the government, it’s just one small way that the “disenfranchised 48%” can conscientiously and civilly object. It’s not a trend, nor is it something they’re doing to try and appear “clever” (whatever you mean by that) in the eyes of others.

We shouldn’t even feel the need to object in this way, but without a functioning opposition and enquiring press, the latter owned by those that own the government, what other option do we have?

 

[DarloRich]

I would tend to disagree that doing so is “silly” or based on the need to be “trendy” or “clever”.

There are a great many people in this country who feel that the fraud perpetrated on the country - called Brexit - should not be accepted. Given that the census is owned by the government, it’s just one small way that the “disenfranchised 48%” can conscientiously and civilly object. It’s not a trend, nor is it something they’re doing to try and appear “clever” (whatever you mean by that) in the eyes of others.

We shouldn’t even feel the need to object in this way, but without a functioning opposition and enquiring press, the latter owned by those that own the government, what other option do we have?

OK, describe yourself how you like - but you are wasting your time. It will change nothing and be little more than footnote in history books to explain a quirk in the data. Invest your time in joining one of the campaign groups designed to overturn Brexit. It might take a few years mind.

 

[EssexGonzo]

OK, describe yourself how you like - but you are wasting your time. It will change nothing and be little more than footnote in history books to explain a quirk in the data. Invest your time in joining one of the campaign groups designed to overturn Brexit. It might take a few years mind.

I guess that’s the point - there’s no time invested here (apart from writing this post) and we are free to describe ourselves as we wish to. For now, at least.

 

[Bevan Price]

My letter has arrived, i wonder if everyone does it online on March 21 the servers can cope?

I very much doubt it. If more than around 5 to 10% of the population try to do it at the same time, I suspect the entire Census website may "collapse" for several hours. (I have alredy done mine, as no changes are expected before 21 March)

 

[Wuffle]

Has there been a headcount that's caused so much wailing and gnashing of teeth since the one in Palestine 2,000 years ago ?

 

[cb a1]

Has there been a headcount that's caused so much wailing and gnashing of teeth since the one in Palestine 2,000 years ago ?

I am led to believe that the headcount of 1991 was substantially down on what it should have been.

A little thing called the Poll Tax ...

Despite assurances that what went on the Census form wouldn't be shared with local councils, the distrust of the government ran so deep that many of those who weren't registered to pay the Poll Tax didn't complete the Census.

 

[jacksmithyton]

I am led to believe that the headcount of 1991 was substantially down on what it should have been.

A little thing called the Poll Tax ...

Despite assurances that what went on the Census form wouldn't be shared with local councils, the distrust of the government ran so deep that many of those who weren't registered to pay the Poll Tax didn't complete the Census.

I wonder what % of the population don't fill in their forms. My Great Grandfather who was Jewish, for obvious reasons refused to participate in the census...

 

[102 fan]

You’re getting your knickers in a twist over nothing.

Can you point to the exact wording of the question?

In fact I’ve just googled it for you:

Census 2021: Declare yourself European ✓

I have declared myself European in the census

www.stayeuropean.org

Brits urged to declare themselves 'European' in 2021 Census

More than 29,000 have said they will write their nationality as 'European'

www.plymouthherald.co.uk

It is a campaign to get people to select “Other” on the question of nationality, then type “European”. The ONS have not included “European” as a specific option. You could type anything you wish.

PS, you questioned the notion of a European identity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2021 ==



It’s nothing to do with the European Union. And what planet are you on where people from Asia or Africa are not considered as Asian or African? Seriously.

Of course it's about the EU, and our departure from it. Anybody who thinks otherwise is naive.

And in response to your last statement, when was the last time a person from Africa was NOT referenced by thier Country of residence but the area as a whole?

Was Gaddafi described as Libyan or African?
Was Pistorius described as South African or African?
Was Amin described as Ugandan or African?

They all lived in Africa, and are African, but Africa has 56 individual states. The UK has 4, and look how much argument we have about whether we're Scots, English, Welsh, N Irish, British or European, and I would imagine such arguments excist in other Countries, especially when it's over 50.

I could say I'm British, from the Province of Ulster, in the Island of Ireland which makes up the British Isles, but the census wouldn't let me.

 

[Purple Orange]

Of course it's about the EU, and our departure from it. Anybody who thinks otherwise is naive.

And in response to your last statement, when was the last time a person from Africa was NOT referenced by thier Country of residence but the area as a whole?

Was Gaddafi described as Libyan or African?
Was Pistorius described as South African or African?
Was Amin described as Ugandan or African?

They all lived in Africa, and are African, but Africa has 56 individual states. The UK has 4, and look how much argument we have about whether we're Scots, English, Welsh, N Irish, British or European, and I would imagine such arguments excist in other Countries, especially when it's over 50.

I could say I'm British, from the Province of Ulster, in the Island of Ireland which makes up the British Isles, but the census wouldn't let me.

Someone can describe themselves as Libyan and African, South African and African, Ugandan and African. Same with people from Asia who sometimes reference Asia. The “and” is important to recognise. Just you can you’re British and European and Northern Irish, just as I can say I’m English and British and European.... or do you think we are not European?