Celtic Sea Tunnel?

[HSTEd]

Not having major freight train flows actually cheapens the project rather considerably, since an immersed tunnel is far more practical if you can handle steep gradients.

Even the lickey incline is only 2.65%, but both Motorways and High speed railways can do far better.
4% is in high speed use in Germany now (or soon will be). I'd like to see a freight train get over that, even with a ten thousand horsepower CoCo banking electric.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

If such a tunnel from Holyhead to Dublin was built who woild run the trains?
Would it be an international arrangement like Enterprise and Eurostar or could it be run by franchised train companies like Virgin West Coast?

 

[59CosG95]

Not having major freight train flows actually cheapens the project rather considerably, since an immersed tunnel is far more practical if you can handle steep gradients.

Even the lickey incline is only 2.65%, but both Motorways and High speed railways can do far better.
4% is in high speed use in Germany now (or soon will be). I'd like to see a freight train get over that, even with a ten thousand horsepower CoCo banking electric.

What about with 2 or more 10kHP CoCo banking electrics?

 

[HSTEd]

What about with 2 or more 10kHP CoCo banking electrics?

Well a 10kHP banking electric would be able to drag any train a Class 70 could manage, but do it at something like three times the speed.

Cl70 has a starting tractive effort of roughly 530kN.
On a 4% slope that would be sufficient to hold a 1200t train, if we neglect air resistance due to the high speed then the locomotive would be able to manage a train of a thousand tonnes plus itself with a little margin. In a tunnel there is no rail contamination really to worry about.

With 7.6MW at rail that tractive effort can be sustained at 51kph - or roughly 30mph.

That is obviously too slow for an operational railway.
The chinese have a 13,000hp locomotive (HXD2B) but even that would struggle with a thousand tonne train - equalising speed of 40mph.

Even if we are generation and assume the train always starts its ascent at 80mph a kilometres long 4% drag is going to be problematic.

EDIT:
Also how did this post end up in this thread?

 

[Chester1]

The only way I can see Dublin to London via train becoming anything more than a fantasy is through forgetting a tunnel. London to Holyhead could be cut to about 2 hours 20 mins by using HS2 to Crewe (50 mins) and electrifying and speeding up Crewe to Holyhead to cut journey times by a third (to 90 mins for 110 miles). Add in 40 mins transfer and 2 and a half hours ferry it could the time to 5 hours 30 minutes. Even with airport waiting times its still slower than flying and probably more expensive. I reckon it would cost £500m+ for the electrifcation and enough classic compatible HS trains.

 

[krus_aragon]

The only way I can see Dublin to London via train becoming anything more than a fantasy is through forgetting a tunnel. London to Holyhead could be cut to about 2 hours 20 mins by using HS2 to Crewe (50 mins) and electrifying and speeding up Crewe to Holyhead to cut journey times by a third (to 90 mins for 110 miles). Add in 40 mins transfer and 2 and a half hours ferry it could the time to 5 hours 30 minutes. Even with airport waiting times its still slower than flying and probably more expensive. I reckon it would cost £500m+ for the electrifcation and enough classic compatible HS trains.

This is what I see as being a more likely sticking point with this project: getting to Holyhead. In addition to the oft-quoted bridge-work needed to get wires to Chester, there's the (wrought iron) tubular bridge over the Conwy and the medieval town walls there that give me particular concern. Oh, and here's a fine illustration of some of Chester's bridge-clearance issues:

Anthony Thomas, from nwrail.org.uk

The talk of building a new high-speed route on a new alignment throws us back to the original quest for an Irish Mail route. But this time:

• The river Conwy has been successfully bridged, but there are now three bridges and an underwater tunnel already there.
• You'll need new-bore tunnels to get through Penmaenmawr and Penmaenbach on a high-speed alignment: no use going round the edge clinging to the coast.
• The Menai Straits is a Site of Special Scientific Interest, so tread lightly with any new bridges there.
• The A55 dual carriageway has taken a lot of the best land for an east-west route (see what happened to the four-track alignment through Colwyn Bay)

What about the alternative routes? There may well be options at the eastern end but geography gets tricky in North West Wales. Almost two-hundred years ago Charles Vignoles surveyed an Irish Mail route through Snowdonia, but that wouldn't suit a straight high-speed route (or the National Park Authority!). Which leaves us considering Brunel's suggestion of going via South Wales, or more exotic ideas...

In summary, I follow Chester1's sentiments with this thought: Any such talk of a rail tunnel is useless unless we've worked out what it will connect with on the Welsh side.

 

[Hornet]

The only way I can see Dublin to London via train becoming anything more than a fantasy is through forgetting a tunnel. London to Holyhead could be cut to about 2 hours 20 mins by using HS2 to Crewe (50 mins) and electrifying and speeding up Crewe to Holyhead to cut journey times by a third (to 90 mins for 110 miles). Add in 40 mins transfer and 2 and a half hours ferry it could the time to 5 hours 30 minutes. Even with airport waiting times its still slower than flying and probably more expensive. I reckon it would cost £500m+ for the electrifcation and enough classic compatible HS trains.

This is a far more feasable plan. The new generation of Superfast Traditional Ferries, (not the HSS, which is close to being discontinued on the Irish sea route, with one return summer sailing per day ATM), are capable of speeds in excess of 30 knots. When HSS started running in the 90's, I could leave High Wycombe at 13:00, ride up to Holyhead arriving at 17:30, catch the 18:30 HSS and be riding through the Dublin Suburbs by 20:15. My fastest Central London to Central Dublin by air since 9/11 is around 5 hours. Certainly HS2, North Wales Coast Line upgrade, seamless rail to ship connection at Holyhead and 2:30 Superfast ferry, would allow Rail/Ship to become far more competitive.

There has been talk of moving Dublin Port's operations to a proposed new facility at Balbriggan. This would allow Dublin Port to be redeveloped to a mixture of commercial and badly needed social housing (31,000 units have been mooted in the last few days). A major revamp of the Ferry terminals could be included in this plan in Dublin, with a LUAS extension from the Point and Heavy Rail also being extended from the North Wall freight terminal. Again seamless Ship to Rail/LUAS connections at Dublin Port should be expected.

The London Dublin timings would become more competitive, but other Cities like Birmingham, Bristol, Manchester, Liverpool, Leed/Bradford and Newcastle the competitive element would be marginal, if at all. Also there is the problem of limited timings because of the Ferry schedules. There are so many flights from London Airports to Dublin throughout the day, (close to hourly from Heathrow alone). Most people who regularly travel between the two Cities, like myself, value that flexibility, and, of course, the cost. (It's cheaper for me to get a retun flight from Dublin to London, than the price of a single taxi journey across Dublin to the Airport).

If flight prices were at the level of the 80's, (£84 LHR-DUB return, which would equate to around £250 today), then there is a definite argument for the revamp Rail/Ferry scenario. As flights are as cheap as £40 return, (less from some regional airports), and there is no chance in the foreseeable future that there will be massive increases in air fares, then the status quo regards Rail/Sail will remain in place.

 

[Chester1]

This is what I see as being a more likely sticking point with this project: getting to Holyhead. In addition to the oft-quoted bridge-work needed to get wires to Chester, there's the (wrought iron) tubular bridge over the Conwy and the medieval town walls there that give me particular concern. Oh, and here's a fine illustration of some of Chester's bridge-clearance issues:

Anthony Thomas, from nwrail.org.uk

The talk of building a new high-speed route on a new alignment throws us back to the original quest for an Irish Mail route. But this time:

• The river Conwy has been successfully bridged, but there are now three bridges and an underwater tunnel already there.
• You'll need new-bore tunnels to get through Penmaenmawr and Penmaenbach on a high-speed alignment: no use going round the edge clinging to the coast.
• The Menai Straits is a Site of Special Scientific Interest, so tread lightly with any new bridges there.
• The A55 dual carriageway has taken a lot of the best land for an east-west route (see what happened to the four-track alignment through Colwyn Bay)

What about the alternative routes? There may well be options at the eastern end but geography gets tricky in North West Wales. Almost two-hundred years ago Charles Vignoles surveyed an Irish Mail route through Snowdonia, but that wouldn't suit a straight high-speed route (or the National Park Authority!). Which leaves us considering Brunel's suggestion of going via South Wales, or more exotic ideas...

In summary, I follow Chester1's sentiments with this thought: Any such talk of a rail tunnel is useless unless we've worked out what it will connect with on the Welsh side.

I wasn't suggesting a full HS upgrade but speeding up the current line. Its 60-80mph. 90mph running and faster accerating trains would make a huge difference to journey times. The bridges and the tunnel would be costly to solve not impossible. I think all or most of the line will be electrified anyway in the next few years anyway, probably using some Welsh funding. Doing it as an addon to HS2 project would be a real vote winner (there are 4 Tory held marginal seats on the route).

This is a far more feasable plan. The new generation of Superfast Traditional Ferries, (not the HSS, which is close to being discontinued on the Irish sea route, with one return summer sailing per day ATM), are capable of speeds in excess of 30 knots. When HSS started running in the 90's, I could leave High Wycombe at 13:00, ride up to Holyhead arriving at 17:30, catch the 18:30 HSS and be riding through the Dublin Suburbs by 20:15. My fastest Central London to Central Dublin by air since 9/11 is around 5 hours. Certainly HS2, North Wales Coast Line upgrade, seamless rail to ship connection at Holyhead and 2:30 Superfast ferry, would allow Rail/Ship to become far more competitive.

There has been talk of moving Dublin Port's operations to a proposed new facility at Balbriggan. This would allow Dublin Port to be redeveloped to a mixture of commercial and badly needed social housing (31,000 units have been mooted in the last few days). A major revamp of the Ferry terminals could be included in this plan in Dublin, with a LUAS extension from the Point and Heavy Rail also being extended from the North Wall freight terminal. Again seamless Ship to Rail/LUAS connections at Dublin Port should be expected.

The London Dublin timings would become more competitive, but other Cities like Birmingham, Bristol, Manchester, Liverpool, Leed/Bradford and Newcastle the competitive element would be marginal, if at all. Also there is the problem of limited timings because of the Ferry schedules. There are so many flights from London Airports to Dublin throughout the day, (close to hourly from Heathrow alone). Most people who regularly travel between the two Cities, like myself, value that flexibility, and, of course, the cost. (It's cheaper for me to get a retun flight from Dublin to London, than the price of a single taxi journey across Dublin to the Airport).

If flight prices were at the level of the 80's, (£84 LHR-DUB return, which would equate to around £250 today), then there is a definite argument for the revamp Rail/Ferry scenario. As flights are as cheap as £40 return, (less from some regional airports), and there is no chance in the foreseeable future that there will be massive increases in air fares, then the status quo regards Rail/Sail will remain in place.

I am not sure who owns the port but its plausible for the government to somehow make sure ferries are timed for the trains. I agree about the cost of travel, air travel is too cheap atm to make it viable. However, I dont think that will always be the case. If oil prices rise and or airport taxes increase then the situation could change.

 

[Bright Boy]

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/underwater-tunnel-between-north-wales-8095838


£15bn, 50 years hence.... A true pipe dream?

Incidentally, excellent up to date image of a Virgin HST at a First North Western-managed Holyhead to accompany the story. :roll:

Was the date of the periodical featuring this article 1st April by any chance ?

 

[Class 170101]

There would need to be three tunnels, plus perhaps about 5k inshore tunnel each side. So perhaps something like £150m per Km may be more appropriate - that's coming in at about £18Bn at today's prices. You then have about 160Km of HSR - which on current phase 1 prices could be getting on for £14Bn then another £14Bn for a line to Belfast. Let's not forget inflation assuming a start date in the 2030's, optimism bias could be 40-100% on top - Sticking my finger in an informed bit of air, I'd price the whole project in excess of £70Bn

Thats the total projected cost of course. Not all of it would be borne by British taxpayers. Now accepting both the UK and Ireland (and the EU) are in a financial mess. Hopefully the tunnelling costs would be shared 50/50. The Irish High Speed Line solely by Ireland and the UK High Speed Line solely by the UK, in both cases perhaps an amount of EU money if we are still in the EU by then.

Something else it may reduce is the requirements on runway capacity. Instead of flights between London, Belfast, Dublin, Manchester, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Newcastle and others and may release this capacity for flights to more distant parts of the EU and other parts of the world.

 

[Bald Rick]

If oil prices rise and or airport taxes increase then the situation could change.

Oil prices would have to double just to get them back to their peak in 2008. Now while that is quite possible - in time - it still won't make that much difference to domestic flight prices, which for the cheapest fares is mostly Air Passenger Duty.

It's also unlikely that APD will increase significantly either, particularly if Scotland get control of theirs.

 

[Bright Boy]

Its an April Fools Joke fellas !!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Its an April Fools Joke fellas !!

The Daily Post article in the link on the first posting clearly shows an issue dated of 12th November 2014, not 1st April 2014.

More to the point, the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport do not have a specific Welsh division as stated in the banner headline of the Daily Post article, so I am informed.

 

[Bright Boy]

The Daily Post article in the link on the first posting clearly shows an issue dated of 12th November 2014, not 1st April 2014.

More to the point, the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport do not have a specific Welsh division as stated in the banner headline of the Daily Post article, so I am informed.

It might not have been published in April but it is a joke.

If there was ever going to be a tunnel built between Great Britain and Ireland it would be between Fishguard and Rosslare as that is the shortest distance under the sea in the southern part of Britain to connect London and Dublin, Portpatrick to Northern Ireland is a lot shorter but a lot further from London and Dublin.

But such a tunnel would be so expensive that it would not be financially viable, it would take hundreds of years of toll charges to be reimbursed.