CCTV on trains

[43066]

Having use SE everyday it says "In the interest of your safety and security, CCTV is in operation of this train" something like that." at certain stations

It does look like the OP has heard that and misunderstood.

 

[david1212]

No.

How many CCTV cameras do you think an operator can actively monitor at one time? As others have said CCTV is deployed primarily to enable a post incident review to take place, not to actively check for crimes happening in real time.

DOO has operated for many, many years without CCTV (eg the Great Northern routes out of Kings Cross and Thameslink since the 1980s). At many stations dispatch was via platform cameras and monitors, on newer trains it’s usually cameras onboard the train.

I wonder how the monitoring room for a large town / city centre works? Once the train is moving door cameras do not have to be live monitered just ceiling / end panel ones. Typically how many are fitted per carriage ? If 4 or 5 each would fit a row across a screen. For a 4 coach train a grid of 16 / 20 on a monitor. Then if not constantly live these could scroll around even once per minute. Four screens each with 5 rotating views per minute could cover 80 - 100 carriages. If anything seen the cameras for that carriage could be selected and put permanently on a fifth screen.

Just because existing DOO once had no on train CCTV never mind monitoring that does not mean this should continue.

Not sure if further DOO will be allowed & definitely not if ASLEF has anything to do with it.

I hope ASLEF win and futher all existing DOO gets cancelled too. The train manager would have a monitor that scrolls around the cameras of all carriages in the formation on the move.

 

[Hadders]

It would be even better if there was a 2nd member of staff with a visible presence in the train, ‘owning’ the space, engaging with passengers rather than being sat in a back can watching CCTV.

 

[12LDA28C]

I hope ASLEF win and futher all existing DOO gets cancelled too. The train manager would have a monitor that scrolls around the cameras of all carriages in the formation on the move.

Zero chance of existing DOO routes getting 'cancelled'. The DfT is trying to cut costs on the railway, I'm not sure employing many thousands of guards / additional on-train staff on existing DOO routes quite aligns with their remit.

 

[Watershed]

I wonder how the monitoring room for a large town / city centre works? Once the train is moving door cameras do not have to be live monitered just ceiling / end panel ones. Typically how many are fitted per carriage ? If 4 or 5 each would fit a row across a screen. For a 4 coach train a grid of 16 / 20 on a monitor. Then if not constantly live these could scroll around even once per minute. Four screens each with 5 rotating views per minute could cover 80 - 100 carriages. If anything seen the cameras for that carriage could be selected and put permanently on a fifth screen.

If we go with your calculations for a moment (I'm not at all convinced that one person could effectively monitor 80-100 carriages at a time), that means that around 200 people would be needed to monitor all trains across the country.

Which means you would need to recruit perhaps 600 staff to cover the number of shifts needed to have 200 people on shift for an average of 18-20 hours a day.

Even if you paid these staff £25k a year (you would likely be paying more than that), that'd be £15m a year in salary costs alone. Probably nearer £25m a year once you account for all the other incidental costs of employment (employer's NI, pensions, benefits, uniforms, management, sick pay etc.).

You must live in a parallel universe if you think the DfT or Treasury would even consider such a proposal.

 

[route101]

I believe Scotrail have live monitoring of station CCTV.

 

[david1212]

It would be even better if there was a 2nd member of staff with a visible presence in the train, ‘owning’ the space, engaging with passengers rather than being sat in a back can watching CCTV.

There is a place for both particularly where the formation has two non-interconnecting sets e.g. Chiltern 168's running as 2 + 3 or if the train is (over)crowded as better for monitoring from the back cab than non.

If we go with your calculations for a moment (I'm not at all convinced that one person could effectively monitor 80-100 carriages at a time), that means that around 200 people would be needed to monitor all trains across the country.

Which means you would need to recruit perhaps 600 staff to cover the number of shifts needed to have 200 people on shift for an average of 18-20 hours a day.

Even if you paid these staff £25k a year (you would likely be paying more than that), that'd be £15m a year in salary costs alone. Probably nearer £25m a year once you account for all the other incidental costs of employment (employer's NI, pensions, benefits, uniforms, management, sick pay etc.).

You must live in a parallel universe if you think the DfT or Treasury would even consider such a proposal.

My calculations are just ' back of an envelope ' so I welcome the thoughts of others and even better anyone who works in live CCTV monitoring. Given a train is a captive audience my thinking was one person could monitor more cameras than for large railway station, streets, shopping centre etc.

Putting aside the unions blocking any extension of DOO, which as stated above I think should not exist at all, the cost you suggest of £25m pa would be a big reduction compared with that for the number of train managers, guards, conductors, OBS or whatever other job name currently employed. Scaling down if an average of one onboard person to 5 carriages against one monitoring room person to 80 it is a cut of 15.

 

[Falcon1200]

The train manager would have a monitor that scrolls around the cameras of all carriages in the formation on the move.

How would the train manager have time to monitor CCTV monitors in between opening and closing doors, patrolling the train, checking and issuing tickets, and assisting passengers? Unless the proposal is that they do nothing but monitor CCTV.... in which case the train is pretty much still effectively DOO!

 

[david1212]

How would the train manager have time to monitor CCTV monitors in between opening and closing doors, patrolling the train, checking and issuing tickets, and assisting passengers? Unless the proposal is that they do nothing but monitor CCTV.... in which case the train is pretty much still effectively DOO!

Of course ' one size does not fit all '. If the service has station stops every few minutes they would not. If start to destination is an hour and only 3 station stops plus all have barriers no need for a ticket check. Certainly walk through a couple of times giving anyone needed a ticket the opportunity to request e.g. onward travel from destination. In between they can monitor for any issues with CCTV. Also can check part of a formation they can not walk through to. Overall another tool plus passenger reassurance.

 

[Runningaround]

If we go with your calculations for a moment (I'm not at all convinced that one person could effectively monitor 80-100 carriages at a time), that means that around 200 people would be needed to monitor all trains across the country.

Which means you would need to recruit perhaps 600 staff to cover the number of shifts needed to have 200 people on shift for an average of 18-20 hours a day.

Even if you paid these staff £25k a year (you would likely be paying more than that), that'd be £15m a year in salary costs alone. Probably nearer £25m a year once you account for all the other incidental costs of employment (employer's NI, pensions, benefits, uniforms, management, sick pay etc.).

You must live in a parallel universe if you think the DfT or Treasury would even consider such a proposal.

You wouldn't have one member of staff watching each camera would you, have you heard of switching channels I've got 900 channels on my tv I don't watch each one on a separate TV. Like crossing cameras in central signal boxes or traffic control centres and CCTV control rooms you have all screens up and highlight those that need closer attention or are triggered by a call staffed by a few CCTV operators.

 

[Watershed]

You wouldn't have one member of staff watching each camera would you, have you heard of switching channels I've got 900 channels on my tv I don't watch each one on a separate TV. Like crossing cameras in central signal boxes or traffic control centres and CCTV control rooms you have all screens up and highlight those that need closer attention or are triggered by a call staffed by a few CCTV operators.

The suggestion was active monitoring of all cameras on all carriages. Which would require 200 staff on shift at any given time, even if you assumed they could each monitor 80 carriages, which seems highly ambitious.

 

[Runningaround]

The suggestion was active monitoring of all cameras on all carriages. Which would require 200 staff on shift at any given time, even if you assumed they could each monitor 80 carriages, which seems highly ambitious.

It wouldn't just like you don't have one operator for every CCTV camera in a control centre you have a wall of cameras and focus on the ones for concern which are viewed live and help can be called on the spot. Even If you have a guard on the train, they can have each carriage camera on their screen in the cab if something needs looking at closer they switch to those cameras in that area and can make a judgment there and then and either investigate or call for assistance. CCTV only used after an offence is hardly a deterrent as the crimes been committed. Bit late getting involved while the victims in hospital. How many think I'll not harass that woman if 10 days later someone will see it on CCTV. But if they know someone is watching them at the time it might.
Fear of CCTV has diminished due to knowing there's quite likely nobody watching them, and you have profited from your crime long before you get collared.

 

[Runningaround]

How would the train manager have time to monitor CCTV monitors in between opening and closing doors, patrolling the train, checking and issuing tickets, and assisting passengers? Unless the proposal is that they do nothing but monitor CCTV.... in which case the train is pretty much still effectively DOO!

How do driverless operations work do they have one person for each train in the control rooms or do you have one overseeing a few?
How does one Signaling centre monitor a hundred odd crossings and trains they don't have one watching each camera?
How do road traffic management centres watch all the roads do they employ one operator for each camera?

 

[skyhigh]

It wouldn't just like you don't have one operator for every CCTV camera in a control centre you have a wall of cameras and focus on the ones for concern which are viewed live and help can be called on the spot.

How does one Signaling centre monitor a hundred odd crossings and trains they don't have one watching each camera?
How do road traffic management centres watch all the roads do they employ one operator for each camera?

I'm not sure you get the point being made. The suggestion was one person watching 80 cameras at once, which would require 200 people at once to view all the carriages on the network. Unless you think one person could watch hundreds of cameras at once?

 

[Falcon1200]

How do driverless operations work do they have one person for each train in the control rooms or do you have one overseeing a few?

There are very few driverless trains in the UK and each train does not have to be individually monitored.

How does one Signaling centre monitor a hundred odd crossings and trains they don't have one watching each camera?

Each Signaller monitors the crossings in their own area (which will not be a hundred) and then only at the times needed.

How do road traffic management centres watch all the roads do they employ one operator for each camera?

No idea, we are discussing the rail industry here.

 

[Runningaround]

There are very few driverless trains in the UK and each train does not have to be individually monitored.

You don't need one watching each one do you otherwise the staff saving costs wouldn't be worth taking someone off the train

Each Signaller monitors the crossings in their own area (which will not be a hundred) and then only at the times needed.

Each Signaller is not watching one camera or operating each telephone at a crossing are they?

No idea, we are discussing the rail industry here.

It's the same principle you don't need a hundred CCTV operators to watch a hundred CCTV's you have a control room with a bank of screens with live footage of each train and station and anywhere else, you then focus on the ones needing attention, it's too late if all the CCTV's do is record and get watched hours or days when the events finished.
Even if the Guard watches it during his time in the cab he can judge a situation from a safe distance can't he.

 

[Flying Snail]

I am puzzled where those proposing this think the bandwidth will come from for thousands of trains to each constantly pump out dozens of HD video feeds.

 

[Falcon1200]

You don't need one watching each one do you otherwise the staff saving costs wouldn't be worth taking someone off the train

Each Signaller is not watching one camera or operating each telephone at a crossing are they?

It's the same principle you don't need a hundred CCTV operators to watch a hundred CCTV's you have a control room with a bank of screens with live footage of each train and station and anywhere else, you then focus on the ones needing attention, it's too late if all the CCTV's do is record and get watched hours or days when the events finished.
Even if the Guard watches it during his time in the cab he can judge a situation from a safe distance can't he.

In your first two points you are effectively repeating what I have already said! Regarding your last, however, you do not just need live footage of each train, you need live footage of every carriage of each train; For the Crossrail fleet of 70 9-car Class 345 sets, for example, even if only 50 were in traffic that is 450 screens to be watched. Where do you propose the finance to provide the staff and facilities to achieve this would come from?

 

[Howardh]

There is usually quite a lot of 'red tape' around accessing and/or viewing CCTV footage, it isn't generally something any Joe Bloggs from the company can do!

A growing trend certainly on buses is a screen for the passengers showing them on live CCTV to make them aware they're on CCTV, how effective that is in reducing incidents I don't know

I suppose someone could record those images on to their own phone/camera, if they are stood/sat close; thus bypassing any data protection laws? That being said, those images often move quickly from one camera to the next and don't necessarily show someone's face clearly (so one asks, what use are they to convict?!).

How long are rail companies allowed to keep their data before it has to be legally deleted?

 

[skyhigh]

That being said, those images often move quickly from one camera to the next and don't necessarily show someone's face clearly (so one asks, what use are they to convict?!).

The actual footage is recorded constantly, it's just the screen that changes...

 

[jon0844]

so basically if im being attacked in a carriage or there is a crime or someone smoking then the cctv isnt going to help stop the activity that is in progress.
Its not really helping my safety if its going to be used after the event has occurred

If you use the alarm, the driver can see what's going on. Otherwise, as said, the cameras can be downloaded later.

Some trains allow remote monitoring (temperatures, lighting/toilet/AC status, passenger numbers etc) and I wonder if there's a means of accessing cameras (even just still images) over a mobile data connection by control? That would be an additional benefit for seeing what things are like inside a train that might be stranded, even if you can't expect a 12 car train with a minimum of 2 cameras per coach (more for things like the accessible toilet [entrance, not inside!]).

 

[Elorith]

707s at SWR have internals CCTV monitors which the guard can monitor if the train is full and standing or when not out walking the train and working from the cab. It's very useful in certain situations (eg: passcom/call for aid activation), and also just handy to work out how full the train is etc.

 

[dosxuk]

I suppose someone could record those images on to their own phone/camera, if they are stood/sat close; thus bypassing any data protection laws?

If someone on a bus wanted to take a photo of someone else on the bus to show they were there, I'm pretty sure they could find a way of doing so without needing to photograph or video a CCTV monitor. They could just pretend to take a selfie and "accidentally" use the wrong camera.

 

[stuving]

I don't think any any announcement about CCTV being used can be taken to imply anything specific about how closely it's being monitored. For all the reasons mentioned so far, whatever decides to make the announcement isn't going to know that. Yes, you could do automatic monitoring of those staff (including direction of gaze), but would anyone actually do that?

Of course, technology can also monitor the CCTV for you. That kind of pattern classification, looking at people (crowds and individuals) to detect potentially dangerous behaviour, has been a research topic for some time now. And commercial systems are now appearing from the bigger players - Siemens Mobility got some marketing for their "Intelligent CCTV" turned into an article in the latest Sunday Times.

If you look at their marketing pitch, it is more about more basic practical functions like seat occupancy and spotting places staff need to get to such as bottlenecks in passenger flow.

Intelligent CCTV

Our Intelligent CCTV provides you with all information about occupancy levels, passenger flow, and safety-related incidents in the blink of an eye.

www.mobility.siemens.com

Data Analytics and Algorithms for Safety and Comfort​

How can you increase your passenger’s sense of security? Sharpen your view of everything that happens inside your vehicles. Our Intelligent Closed Circuit Television (Intelligent CCTV) provides you with all information about occupancy levels, passenger flow, and safety-related incidents in the blink of an eye. It supplements traditional monitoring with an active evaluation of video on board your entire fleet. The results are analyzed by powerful algorithms in real time and available for your crew, for passengers, and way-side systems. Usable in all rail-based vehicles, from trams to high-speed trains.

The article says Siemens' system is only going into a full trial in Berlin next month, but they are "offering the technology to six train operators who will be renewing their rolling stock in the next 18 months": Chiltern, GWR, Northern, ScotRail, SE, and TPE.

 

[DevilSpawner66]

i would have thought no-one would watch it constantly unless anything bad happens like a crime or crash or something else

 

[nineteenninety]

It has been psychologically proven that the presence of CCTV on trains makes passengers feel safer as well as acting as a deterrent for potential crime. Under the Data Protection Act 2018, you are not allowed to view any material recorded on the CCTV, even in the event of an incident taking place, a worker on the railway can only provide the BTP/Police with the CCTV recordings following an incident by downloading them.

 

[Watershed]

It has been psychologically proven that the presence of CCTV on trains makes passengers feel safer as well as acting as a deterrent for potential crime. Under the Data Protection Act 2018, you are not allowed to view any material recorded on the CCTV, even in the event of an incident taking place, a worker on the railway can only provide the BTP/Police with the CCTV recordings following an incident by downloading them.

This is not accurate - in fact the opposite is true! You are entitled to request a copy of your personal data, which includes any CCTV footage. There are circumstances where that request could be denied but the general principle is that it's your right to obtain a copy of the footage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most CCTV is just recorded for use later in the event of a crime being reported. It thus provides a deterrent.

However I do recall reading in Modern Railways this month that Siemens is working with a tech company on on-train CCTV that uses AI to work out when it thinks something bad is happening, e.g. someone squaring up to someone else, and flagging this up to staff so they can look at it and see if there is a problem. This is interesting but psychologically feels a bit odd.

 

[O L Leigh]

However I do recall reading in Modern Railways this month that Siemens is working with a tech company on on-train CCTV that uses AI to work out when it thinks something bad is happening, e.g. someone squaring up to someone else, and flagging this up to staff so they can look at it and see if there is a problem. This is interesting but psychologically feels a bit odd.

I was reading a BBC news article this morning where an astronomer was complaining that she had been locked out of her Twitter account because the AI moderator had flagged a video she’d posted of a meteorite falling as “explicit”. The article went on to mention that AI moderation on social media had similarly flagged a photo of some grazing cows and of a combine harvester working a field as “inappropriate”.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-63626769

An astronomer from Oxfordshire was locked out of her Twitter account for three months after sharing a video of a meteor which was flagged by the site's automated moderation tools.

Mary McIntyre was told that her six-second animated clip featured "intimate content", shared without the consent of the participant.

I’d like to think that AI could somehow manage to spot the early signs of trouble, but I don’t feel quite so confident.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d like to think that AI could somehow manage to spot the early signs of trouble, but I don’t feel quite so confident.

I think the key is that the AI is just used to notify traincrew, not to do anything directly, then a human can look and see if there's really an issue or not. But then there's scope creep...