Caught using 16-17 saver discount since 2021

[wdqdw12]

About a month ago, I was taking a train to A Station, where I had used a 16-17 railcard rather than a 16-25 railcard. There were inspectors at the exit of the station, and I was asked to get my railcard checked. He said it counted as a child ticket, as I had used a 16-17 discount, then he wrote a report to SWR with my information, but he didn't tell me what will happen.

Now I have received a letter from SWR prosecutions department (I'm not sure if it's a MG11), it requires me to show current and previous railcards, but I don't have 16-17 railcard.

To be honest, I was not familiar with how to use the trainline APP due to I was an international student going to the UK, so I didn't notice this at first. Since the railcard is saved once it shows on the trainline APP and I don't need to add it everytime, the results could reveal more instances in which I accidentally used the 16-17 discount.

If they choose to ask me to pay the amount I was incorrectly discounted, I estimate the total unpaid fees could have been around £100 (not including any penalties), although the difference between the two prices was only about £1.

I have no problems in immediately settling any amounts owed due to the discount I incorrectly used, but I'm very worried about any other implications.

a)What is the likely outcome here? In terms of fine or proceedings or?

b)Am I likely to face the maximum penalty(a criminal record and a fine of up to £1,000) and will this also affect my visa and future life?

c)Is there any action I can take between now and receiving the letter from SWR that will help to mitigate?

Thanks sincerely in advance!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum.

ALthough we normally try to give help (and there may well be other posters along shortly who are able to give direct advice) I think that you probably need face to face advice on this one: as you are a student, my suggestion in the first place would be to ask your students union if they can help or recommend someone who can help.

This is because of a couple of things that you have told us. Firstly

If they choose to ask me to pay the amount I was incorrectly discounted, I estimate the total unpaid fees could have been around £100 (not including any penalties), although the difference between the two prices was only about £1.

When the railway are looking for compensation, they don’t ask for just the difference between the fare you paid and the fare you should have paid: they argue that you had no valid ticket at all so you need to pay the full fare. I think they also argue that you should pay the full undiscounted fare as if you had no railcard at all.

As you reckon the difference between fares was around £1 and the total difference around £100, that says that there are something like 100 journeys that the railway will want the full fare for. If that full fare was about £6 (which I think follows from the difference between a 33% discount and a 50% discount being around £1) then the railway will be looking for you to pay them £600 in compensation even before there’s any consideration of a fine or costs.

Following on from this, the number of times you have done this will make it hard to argue that you made a mistake 100 times. The railway may well argue that this was deliberate fare evasion, and so will want to prosecute you rather than settle out of court.

Secondly

b)Am I likely to face the maximum penalty(a criminal record and a fine of up to £1,000) and will this also affect my visa and future life?

British law says that only authorised advisers can give help on things like visas. We’re not authorised people - just a bunch of internet users who try to be helpful. So to get an answer to the question about the visa you need to go to someone who has got the authority to advise on this sort of thing. Hopefully that will be the same person who can help you with dealing with the railway’s letter.

Everything that I have put will sound like bad news. But you have started trying to do the right thing by reaching out for help. Carry on doing that as if you can find the right person to advise you then at least you will have someone to help you with this.

 

[AlterEgo]

About a month ago, I was taking a train to A Station, where I had used a 16-17 railcard rather than a 16-25 railcard. There were inspectors at the exit of the station, and I was asked to get my railcard checked. He said it counted as a child ticket, as I had used a 16-17 discount, then he wrote a report to SWR with my information, but he didn't tell me what will happen.

Now I have received a letter from SWR prosecutions department (I'm not sure if it's a MG11), it requires me to show current and previous railcards, but I don't have 16-17 railcard.

To be honest, I was not familiar with how to use the trainline APP due to I was an international student going to the UK, so I didn't notice this at first. Since the railcard is saved once it shows on the trainline APP and I don't need to add it everytime, the results could reveal more instances in which I accidentally used the 16-17 discount.

If you are an international student you will not be 16 or 17 years old, so the big question is - why did you select this? On what grounds would you think you could be entitled to?

If they choose to ask me to pay the amount I was incorrectly discounted, I estimate the total unpaid fees could have been around £100 (not including any penalties), although the difference between the two prices was only about £1.

I have no problems in immediately settling any amounts owed due to the discount I incorrectly used, but I'm very worried about any other implications.

a)What is the likely outcome here? In terms of fine or proceedings or?

They’ll likely calculate all the fares avoided, and demand repayment of the full fares plus £100 or so as their administration fee.

c)Is there any action I can take between now and receiving the letter from SWR that will help to mitigate?

To mitigate? No. You should wait for the letter and there is nothing to do until then. Once it arrives, post a redacted copy here in the thread and people will be able to give more specific advice.

But you should definitely take the advice of your students union as @Fawkes Cat suggests.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

To mitigate? No. You should wait for the letter and there is nothing to do until then.

Just for completeness, the OP has told us

Now I have received a letter from SWR prosecutions department (I'm not sure if it's a MG11), it requires me to show current and previous railcards, but I don't have 16-17 railcard.

 

[WesternLancer]

c)Is there any action I can take between now and receiving the letter from SWR that will help to mitigate?

Thanks sincerely in advance!

OK, welcome to the forum, you are right to take this very seriously. However, you will get good advice here - but I am sorry to hear about this problem, but it will be hard for you to convince them this was some sort of unintended mistake in my view, as you did it lots of time (they will be able to check this if you bought your tickets on line as they will have access to your ticket purchasing records), tho perhaps because the complexities of the UK rail fare system as an international student it's not so easy to be fully clear on the ticket you should buy - but I am not sure the railway company would agree with that...

Further to the previous excellent advice above, things you can do to mitigate this now are

1) immediately buy the correct Railcard that you are entitled to and ensure that 100% EVERY ticket you buy is correct for your travel. If you are unsure in any way go to the ticket office / find a member of staff and ask them to check your ticket before you get on any trains, just to be on the safe side.

2) worst case scenario you are now on a path to being taken to court, where, given what you have said, you would almost certainly get a guilty sentence with any associated criminal conviction that might apply. I suspect this could have consequences for your study visa or if you in future want to extend it to do more studying - so important you try and check if this is the case and avoid this happening if you can.

3) As soon as you can, go to get some advice from your student union or college / university International Student office. Ask to speak to them confidentially and ask them to help you understand what consequences this may have for your visa / student status. It may be that it would be wise to engage a solicitor to help prevent this going to court - but they would help you find one that had the necessary skills (for example I know my local university International Student office has an arrangements with a local legal firm who will give initial advice for free).

Ref dealing with SWR and responding to them, perhaps you can post a copy of what they have sent you here with all personal details / reference numbers blanked out. Then people may be able to give you some advice on how to respond to that.

Your objective in all this needs to be to seek to achieve a settlement with SWR 'out of court' to prevent them taking you to court - this will allow you to avoid a criminal record. It may be that you can achieve that with advice from here without needing to get a solicitor, but if the stakes are high for you due to your visa you may want to ask for help getting that settlement.

On a more positive note from what is seen on these forum threads SWR do seem to often agree to reach such settlements so you have a good chance of that, but as stated above this is likely to be for more than the £1 per journey you estimate.

If you would like to name the stations concerned we can look up the full fare they will consider you have evaded - or you can look this up yourself as it will be what is called the 'Anytime Single' fare for each trip between Station A and Station B - eg if the journey was between Richmond and Waterloo they would regard the fare evaded as the £6 Anytime Day Single.

Hope this helps you. Feel free to ask if you need more help and advice.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

There is some excellent advice upthread so I won't repeat it but your main objective is to try and obtain an out of court settlement. This is usually possible if you engage with the process. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

An aggravating factor in your case is that you have done this before. The train company will be able to search your purchase history and you will need to be careful how you reply to the letter. You should answer the questions they ask for truthfully but you are not required to incriminate yourself either.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around £100 plus the outstanding fares. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[MotCO]

Something else for you to consider. Depending on the college and the course you are on, you may have to disclose any convictions, so if SWR do take you to Court and you are convicted, you may need to advise your college. If you speak to your Student Union adviser, they should be able to advise on this.

 

[WesternLancer]

I understand this organization is a respected source of information for International Students, across a wide range of relevant areas

Charity supporting international students in the UK

Our charity and membership organisation supports international students and those who work with them.

www.ukcisa.org.uk

It looks like a large number (most?) universities and many colleges are members.

 

[RPI]

Its strange, no one ever seems to "make a mistake" the other way around, ie putting 16-25 railcard discount instead of 16-25.

That aside, SWR generally tend to settle rather than take people to court straight away so a settlement is quite likely from them.

 

[WesternLancer]

Its strange, no one ever seems to "make a mistake" the other way around, ie putting 16-25 railcard discount instead of 16-25 16-17.

That aside, SWR generally tend to settle rather than take people to court straight away so a settlement is quite likely from them.

To be fair I don't think it is the OP in this case who has claimed that it was a 'mistake', unless I missed that. But yes, I see your point, which is not unreasonable point to make.

Mind you - would they get reported for making such a mistake? Which would mean they would not end up on here seeking advice. Although technically still an invalid ticket as a result, but costs the passenger not the railway.

Tho I would assume in your line of work you would at least see cases of it if it happened!

 

[Elecman]

Its strange, no one ever seems to "make a mistake" the other way around, ie putting 16-25 railcard discount instead of 16-25.

That aside, SWR generally tend to settle rather than take people to court straight away so a settlement is quite likely from them.

Shouldn’t that be 16-17 railcard in the second instance?

 

[RPI]

Shouldn’t that be 16-17 railcard in the second instance?

Oops, my bad

 

[ashkeba]

Oops, my bad

Easy to confuse, aren't they?

 

[RPI]

Easy to confuse, aren't they?

You certainly got me there I can blame old age though

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Its strange, no one ever seems to "make a mistake" the other way around, ie putting 16-25 railcard discount instead of 16-25.

True, but thereagain we’d be unlikely to hear about it on here. Still, I can’t help thinking such “mistakes” may be in the same category as the “mistakes” supermarkets make with their multibuy offers which actually cost more money than normal.

 

[RPI]

True, but thereagain we’d be unlikely to hear about it on here. Still, I can’t help thinking such “mistakes” may be in the same category as the “mistakes” supermarkets make with their multibuy offers which actually cost more money than normal.

I don't mean stories on here, I mean what I encounter out there on the trains

 

[ChewChewTrain]

I don't mean stories on here, I mean what I encounter out there on the trains

Silly me. Fair enough!

 

[wdqdw12]

Ref dealing with SWR and responding to them, perhaps you can post a copy of what they have sent you here with all personal details / reference numbers blanked out. Then people may be able to give you some advice on how to respond to that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jan 2023 ==

I really appreciate all the advice all of you have given, and I am deeply ashamed of my past inappropriate behaviour.

There is some excellent advice upthread so I won't repeat it but your main objective is to try and obtain an out of court settlement. This is usually possible if you engage with the process. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

I have responded to this letter with reference to these valuable suggestions. I really regret the actions caused by such an oversight.

2) worst case scenario you are now on a path to being taken to court, where, given what you have said, you would almost certainly get a guilty sentence with any associated criminal conviction that might apply. I suspect this could have consequences for your study visa or if you in future want to extend it to do more studying - so important you try and check if this is the case and avoid this happening if you can.

I am very worried about the worst case like you describe. I'm very willing to pay all fines and full tickets fare for my mistake immediately to avoid going to court.

Following on from this, the number of times you have done this will make it hard to argue that you made a mistake 100 times. The railway may well argue that this was deliberate fare evasion, and so will want to prosecute you rather than settle out of court.

Now I feel it is coming to me.

Have you heard of any cases where a criminal record has been expunged with the help of a lawyer?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jan 2023 ==

Your objective in all this needs to be to seek to achieve a settlement with SWR 'out of court' to prevent them taking you to court - this will allow you to avoid a criminal record. It may be that you can achieve that with advice from here without needing to get a solicitor, but if the stakes are high for you due to your visa you may want to ask for help getting that settlement.

Should I state directly in my letter that I wish to settle out of court?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Have you heard of any cases where a criminal record has been expunged with the help of a lawyer?

This isn't quite the right question to ask: broadly speaking, if the matter goes to court or to the Single Justice Procedure and you are found guilty or plead guilty, then you have a criminal record. So if you want to avoid having a criminal record, you want to avoid going to court.

The consensus view here seems to be that if you engage with the railway, and write back to their letters, they may let you settle out of court. That would mean that you don't get a criminal record. If you're happy to go with the consensus, then that means you don't need a lawyer yet. But if the matter is going to go to court (and if that happens, you will get a letter telling you about this) at that point I think you really will need a lawyer.

As I say, the general view here is that you can resolve this before it goes to court. As I said in post #2, I'm not sure that this is the case. My advice remains that you should talk to someone like your students union for face to face advice sooner rather than later. But if you're happy with the general view, then you may find that you don't need a lawyer yet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jan 2023 ==

Should I state directly in my letter that I wish to settle out of court?

Yes. Phrase it politely - and remember that you are asking them to be generous to you.

 

[spag23]

I am deeply ashamed of my past inappropriate behaviour.

I really regret the actions caused by such an oversight

Not being judgmental, but if these two statements were to appear together in any response, the TOC may be left confused as to whether the OP regards the alleged breaches as deliberate, or accidental.

 

[12345ama]

Any update from them?

 

[Gloster]

Any update from them?

If you have a problem of your own you should start a separate thread. No two problems are identical and good advice for one might be bad for another.