Caught shorting tickets (thameslink)

[Helpme2022]

Hey there,
Today I was stopped by an inspector who accused me of shorting tickets. To be honest I know it sounds silly but I didn’t know this was an actual offence, anyways I didn’t answer his question instead I just said hmm but I know they will find out the truth which is I did it for a short time due to lack of student loan (I know it’s not a good excuse just the truth)
I was going from St Albans City into London and the full price amount would of costed £475.20 over the months, he didn’t fine me but instead put me under investigation. Anyways does anyone know what the costs to avoid court would be if it’s possible at all?
Thanks guys

 

[plugwash]

Did he ask you for your details? if so did you give them?

What type of tickets were you using?

 

[Helpme2022]

Yes and I gave them over. I believe he thought I was lying as he did accuse me of giving the wrong address which is not true and I was using digital Trainline tickets

 

[WesternLancer]

Hey there,
Today I was stopped by an inspector who accused me of shorting tickets. To be honest I know it sounds silly but I didn’t know this was an actual offence, anyways I didn’t answer his question instead I just said hmm but I know they will find out the truth which is I did it for a short time due to lack of student loan (I know it’s not a good excuse just the truth)
I was going from St Albans City into London and the full price amount would of costed £475.20 over the months, he didn’t fine me but instead put me under investigation. Anyways does anyone know what the costs to avoid court would be if it’s possible at all?
Thanks guys

Should they be prepared to offer you a settlement without court action (which is not guaranteed as they are under no obligation to offer this) - but there may be a reasonable chance - you might expect to pay along the lines of:

- the cost of all the fares evaded (potentially at the full 'Anytime' fare - ie not off peak prices even if that is when you travel, no discount permitted if you had a railcard) - that is £13.20 each way St Albans to St Pancras for example, so you may want to check your £475 figure
- a charge to cover their efforts to investigate it (maybe £100 - £200)
- maybe a bit more on top as they know they can probably win in court which is probably a worse outcome for you.
- you could potentially choose to appoint a solicitor to help you (this will probably cost more money but you can ask a few to get a quote for what they charge) - it may increase the probability of avoiding court action, but I do not think it can gaurantee it.

- if it did go to court you would have most of the above to pay + a court fine which is set on scale according to your income as long as you complete a correct income declaration to the court. The criminal record that goes with that can only be 'costed' in terms of impact on your going forwards (see other recent thread on this topic)

You should immediately get a railcard as as student (which helps show you have taken action to prevent this happening again)

You could seek confidential advice on what to do from your student union welfare service - if they provide this.

 

[Wolfie]

Yes and I gave them over. I believe he thought I was lying as he did accuse me of giving the wrong address which is not true and I was using digital Trainline tickets

Not being given a penalty fare but being put under investigation is really bad news for you. Had you cooperated, been given a penalty fare and paid it the issue would have been resolved. As it is Thameslink will be provided with full information of all of your travel by the Trainline. I can only suggest that you engage fully and try to reach an out of court settlement. That will cost you much more than any fares dodged. Whatever you do be honest. Failure to do so would almost certainly mean court action.

I don't want to have a dig but how the heck could you state that you didn't know that not having the correct ticket is an offence? Why do you think that anyone would pay the full fare otherwise?

 

[WesternLancer]

I don't want to have a dig but how the heck could you state that you didn't know that not having the correct ticket is an offence? Why do you think that anyone would pay the full fare otherwise?

I took it that the OP did not realise it was a criminal offence - and may simply have been like a civil offence or like a parking ticket or some such.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What type of tickets were you using?

That's not an unreasonable question. And did whatever ticket(s) you were using cover the entirety of your journey? @Helpme2022, can you clarify?

 

[Wolfie]

I took it that the OP did not realise it was a criminal offence - and may simply have been like a civil offence or like a parking ticket or some such.

Ah, ok. That makes sense.

 

[Helpme2022]

I was using a ticket with a railcard attached, I did know it was an incorrect thing to do but I didn’t think that it was punishable by going to court and a criminal record. To be honest I found out about doing this by the guy who works in the train station next to my university, he did say don’t get caught but I didn’t think it was that bad and my reason for doing so while being irrelevant was because my student loan wasn’t enough to cover all my expenses so I wouldn’t of been able to attend class

 

[Helpme2022]

That's not an unreasonable question. And did whatever ticket(s) you were using cover the entirety of your journey? @Helpme2022, can you clarify?

No only to touch out of the barrier because the gate is open on my end

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2022 ==

Not being given a penalty fare but being put under investigation is really bad news for you. Had you cooperated, been given a penalty fare and paid it the issue would have been resolved. As it is Thameslink will be provided with full information of all of your travel by the Trainline. I can only suggest that you engage fully and try to reach an out of court settlement. That will cost you much more than any fares dodged. Whatever you do be honest. Failure to do so would almost certainly mean court action.

I don't want to have a dig but how the heck could you state that you didn't know that not having the correct ticket is an offence? Why do you think that anyone would pay the full fare otherwise?

I was using a ticket with a railcard attached, I did know it was an incorrect thing to do but I didn’t think that it was punishable by going to court and a criminal record. To be honest I found out about doing this by the guy who works in the train station next to my university, he did say don’t get caught but I didn’t think it was that bad and my reason for doing so while being irrelevant was because my student loan wasn’t enough to cover all my expenses so I wouldn’t of been able to attend class

 

[AlterEgo]

Anyways does anyone know what the costs to avoid court would be if it’s possible at all?
Thanks guys

It'll usually be the full St Albans to London Anytime fare on each day you evaded the fare, plus £100, if they do indeed choose to settle. If you are unlucky, they will prosecute you in the Magistrates' Court.

 

[Helpme2022]

It'll usually be the full St Albans to London Anytime fare on each day you evaded the fare, plus £100, if they do indeed choose to settle. If you are unlucky, they will prosecute you in the Magistrates' Court.

May I ask if anyone knows how often it goes to court?

 

[WesternLancer]

May I ask if anyone knows how often it goes to court?

I think it would be hard to know that as this forum is not a Representative sample of cases. 100s of cases will go to court I suspect - in big batches - many will be for people who just do not engage with the process and ignore the letters from the railway etc. Of the cases on here - where people engage and follow the advice given, it seems to me that there is a high chance of not going to court. But not everyone updates their threads at the end on what happened.

However, I suspect you have a good chance of not going to court even tho you have evaded fares repeatedly. But you will need to be honest wit them, and engage.

 

[Helpme2022]

I think it would be hard to know that as this forum is not a Representative sample of cases. 100s of cases will go to court I suspect - in big batches - many will be for people who just do not engage with the process and ignore the letters from the railway etc. Of the cases on here - where people engage and follow the advice given, it seems to me that there is a high chance of not going to court. But not everyone updates their threads at the end on what happened.

However, I suspect you have a good chance of not going to court even tho you have evaded fares repeatedly. But you will need to be honest wit them, and engage.

Thank you very much everyone for your time and I’ll be sure to update the tread as and when things happen

 

[skyhigh]

I was using a ticket with a railcard attached

Do you hold the railcard you were using, or were you using both a railcard you didn't possess and short tickets? The more layers to your evasion the less favourably Thameslink will look on offering any settlement.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The OP mentions touching in/out only at the London end of the journey(s) to/from St. Albans. What would normally be charged in such a circumstance, presumably the system would recognise an incomplete journey at the end of the day, and, if repeated, would flag up for investigation a series of similar incomplete journeys occurring over a period of time.

 

[Helpme2022]

The OP mentions touching in/out only at the London end of the journey(s) to/from St. Albans. What would normally be charged in such a circumstance, presumably the system would recognise an incomplete journey at the end of the day, and, if repeated, a series of similar incomplete journeys over a period of time.

I purchased one ticket for the exit and the same ticket allows you to re enter, as I think I mentioned already it was a platform members who said you could do this but I didn’t know how bad it was, yes looking back I realise now I was just being ignorant and it’s my own stupid fault but I know that feeling bad isn’t going to change the outcome

 

[AlterEgo]

May I ask if anyone knows how often it goes to court?

We can't say, really, although the more persistent and egregious the offending is, the more likely you are to be taken to court.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Helpme2022. One further question... How exactly did you calculate £475.20 as the correct total fare amount potentially due?

 

[Helpme2022]

@Helpme2022. One further question... How exactly did you calculate £475.20 as the correct total fare amount potentially due?

I calculated the days going back on Trainline by the full time adult fare

 

[danm14]

To be honest I found out about doing this by the guy who works in the train station next to my university, he did say don’t get caught but I didn’t think it was that bad

If this is genuinely true, I wonder how many other people he has encouraged to do this?

Could there be a rogue staff member encouraging people to evade fares, then reporting them for said evasion, because it's easier than actually trying to detect fare evaders?

Not that it could ever be proven, of course, but it's an interesting one.

 

[swt_passenger]

If this is genuinely true, I wonder how many other people he has encouraged to do this?

Could there be a rogue staff member encouraging people to evade fares, then reporting them for said evasion, because it's easier than actually trying to detect fare evaders?

Not that it could ever be proven, of course, but it's an interesting one.

It’s quite a bit different to the usual stuff the “man on the platform” advised, isn’t it…

 

[WesternLancer]

I calculated the days going back on Trainline by the full time adult fare

So a £23.40 anytime day rtn. So about 20 days worth of travel. (£475 divided by £23)

 

[6Gman]

If this is genuinely true, I wonder how many other people he has encouraged to do this?

Could there be a rogue staff member encouraging people to evade fares, then reporting them for said evasion, because it's easier than actually trying to detect fare evaders?

Not that it could ever be proven, of course, but it's an interesting one.

I was intrigued by this too.

Would a staff member really be suggesting that people short fare and use discounts they're not entitled to?

Just seems bizarre.

 

[Gloster]

Or could it be that the OP has misunderstood something that the member of staff said. As with many of those who ask for help on this forum, he seems to be a bit unsure of the correct terms to use.

 

[danm14]

I was intrigued by this too.

Would a staff member really be suggesting that people short fare and use discounts they're not entitled to?

Just seems bizarre.

It's so outlandish that I can't quite decide whether it's too outlandish to be true, or too outlandish to be made up.

I could imagine a staff member telling an honest 16 year old that they'd pass for a child. I could even imagine a guard doing a regular passenger a favour and issuing their ticket from a station or two further up the line if they were a little short of their fare on a once-off basis.

But telling someone they should both claim to have a railcard they don't have and doughnut? That somehow seems both too far fetched to be true and too far fetched to be made up.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I think it might be more reasonable to assume that the member of staff was merely pointing out the existence of these fare-evasion tactics, rather than suggesting them outright.

Having said that we can't know for sure.

 

[danm14]

I think it might be more reasonable to assume that the member of staff was merely pointing out the existence of these fare-evasion tactics, rather than suggesting them outright.

I can't conceive of any scenario where it would be appropriate for a member of staff to do this; save perhaps saying "and you can't do [fare evasion technique Y] either" after a passenger asked if it was okay for them to do [fare evasion technique X].

 

[gabrielhj07]

I can't conceive of any scenario where it would be appropriate for a member of staff to do this; save perhaps saying "and you can't do [fare evasion technique Y] either" after a passenger asked if it was okay for them to do [fare evasion technique X].

Nor can I, but it seems equally, if not more improbable that they gave advice to evade fares.

 

[AlterEgo]

You’re all assuming the fella working in the station dispensing this excellent fast track to trouble was a railway employee.