Caught in Underground

[Mylifeisruined]

Hey guys,

Long story short. Got caught using a 60+ oyster. What's the likelihood of me avoiding a criminal charge and just paying a huge fine? I haven't found one thread that has actually said the outcome of their TFL court case.

From the looks of it, TFL are very strict and I know it doesn't look good for me. But is there even a small chance that I’ll be partially unscathed from this?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum.

The good news is that TfL have been known to settle out of court - with (it seems to me) something of an increase in this happening recently.

The bad news is it's still pretty rare. The consensus view here is that they take a particularly dim view of misuse of 'high value tickets' - which will include anything where you can ride for free. 60+ Oysters for example.

So while you might benefit from engaging with the process and seeking an out of court settlement, in my view the odds are against it.

 

[Mylifeisruined]

So is it in particular that’s it’s a high value oyster that’s killing my chances? Because I really do not want a criminal record that will really hurt me. I know settling out of court is still rare but is it possible to just pay a fine in court?

 

[swt_passenger]

So is it in particular that’s it’s a high value oyster that’s killing my chances? Because I really do not want a criminal record that will really hurt me. I know settling out of court is still rare but is it possible to just pay a fine in court?

You seem to be misunderstanding what a “fine in court” is. It is the result of being found guilty in a court after a case.

What you’re actually hoping for in this context is a financial settlement of the outstanding fares and the administrative costs directly with TfL, before you even get to court. This is usually referred to as an ‘out of court settlement’.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Presumably the 60+ Oyster card has been confiscated. TfL will be checking the journey history for the card, to try to work out whether it has been used habitually for the journey which you were making when challenged. If it seems to them this has been done, then the odds on an out of court settlement (vaguely possible for a one-off instance) are severely reduced. There is also the question about how you obtained the card which you were not entitled to use. Were you given it by the rightful owner with their knowledge and permission, or did you take it without permission. Did you just find it in the street? What did you tell the inspector when you were challenged?

 

[Mylifeisruined]

You seem to be misunderstanding what a “fine in court” is. It is the result of being found guilty in a court after a case.

What you’re actually hoping for in this context is a financial settlement of the outstanding fares and the administrative costs directly with TfL, before you even get to court. This is usually referred to as an ‘out of court settlement’.

So if you pay a fine in court it automatically comes with a criminal charge? Is this majority of the TFL fine cases?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2023 ==

Presumably the 60+ Oyster card has been confiscated. TfL will be checking the journey history for the card, to try to work out whether it has been used habitually for the journey which you were making when challenged. If it seems to them this has been done, then the odds on an out of court settlement (vaguely possible for a one-off instance) are severely reduced. There is also the question about how you obtained the card which you were not entitled to use. Were you given it by the rightful owner with their knowledge and permission, or did you take it without permission. Did you just find it in the street? What did you tell the inspector when you were challenged?

It was confiscated and it’s been used a lot but not by myself. I don’t know if they would able tell the difference or I can refute that it’s not me making all the previous journeys. And it was a family member’s card and it was used without their permission. Lastly, the inspector didn’t ask much if I’m being honest. He just asked for my name and where I lived and said a letter will be sent. I’m not sure what that means for me.

 

[6Gman]

So if you pay a fine in court it automatically comes with a criminal charge? Is this majority of the TFL fine cases?

You still seem to be struggling to understand how the system works.

If they decide to prosecute it will go to court. You will then be asked to plead guilty or not guilty. If you plead guilty, or plead not guilty but found guilty by the court, then you will have a criminal conviction and it will be accompanied by a fine plus various costs.

You may be able to avoid this by agreeing an out of court settlement with TfL but as others have pointed out they tend to be reluctant to do so and especially so for serious cases like this. They hold all the cards in a case like this.

Sorry, but that's the reality.

 

[swt_passenger]

So if you pay a fine in court it automatically comes with a criminal charge? Is this majority of the TFL fine cases?

A court fine only comes after a court conviction, it’s part of the sentence if you are convicted. This only happens if you’ve been found guilty of the charge.

You clearly don’t want a conviction therefore it’s wrong for you to say you’re happy to pay a fine in court. What you’re actually wanting is to pay compensation and admin costs to TfL.

 

[Mylifeisruined]

A court fine only comes after a court conviction, it’s part of the sentence if you are convicted. This only happens if you’ve been found guilty of the charge.

You clearly don’t want a conviction therefore it’s wrong for you to say you’re happy to pay a fine in court. What you’re actually wanting is to pay compensation and admin costs to TfL.

I didn’t say that, what I meant would gladly pay fines and avoid a crime charge. But I now know that in order for that to happens I would have to avoid going to court altogether I would have to settle out court which is rare and indicates. In other words, I’m in a very sticky situation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2023 ==

You still seem to be struggling to understand how the system works.

If they decide to prosecute it will go to court. You will then be asked to plead guilty or not guilty. If you plead guilty, or plead not guilty but found guilty by the court, then you will have a criminal conviction and it will be accompanied by a fine plus various costs.

You may be able to avoid this by agreeing an out of court settlement with TfL but as others have pointed out they tend to be reluctant to do so and especially so for serious cases like this. They hold all the cards in a case like this.

Sorry, but that's the reality.

I get it now and the severity of it (I honestly didn’t know it was this bad because this has never happen to me before). Is there ANY examples in which they have settled out of court? And in those cases were the mitigating circumstances so big to ignore?

 

[6Gman]

I note the username you have used and can assure you that your life won't be ruined by this incident however it turns out.

At worst you will receive a conviction and a significant financial penalty (fine plus costs).

All you can do at the moment is wait for a letter to arrive, and then come back on here to ask for further advice.

If this was truly a one-off incident (and I've no reason to doubt you) then you will need to write back basically saying:

1. That you apologise for your action.
2. That you now realise its seriousness, that you have learnt from it and that you will not repeat.
3. And that you ask for TfL to consider an out of court settlement that compensates them for the fare avoided plus their costs in dealing with the matter.

There are other more experienced people on here who can also offer advice (I'm not really up to speed with what goes on in London) but that would seem your best option.

 

[reb0118]

It seems that those who have been successful in obtaining an out of court settlement with TfL have engaged a solicitor to negotiate on their behalf.

NB this generally doesn't come cheap - it may be cheaper to accept the guilty charge and pay the court fine and associated costs. Only you can decide if that's worth while.

In theory you can use any solicitor that deals in criminal matters however a specialist may be required.

 

[6Gman]

It was confiscated and it’s been used a lot but not by myself. I don’t know if they would able tell the difference or I can refute that it’s not me making all the previous journeys.

By saying "it's been used a lot but not by myself" do you mean it's been used by the correct person or do you suspect someone else has been using it incorrectly?

(You may, or may not, choose to answer this question)

TfL may, or may not, have further evidence of the nature of past use.

 

[Mylifeisruined]

I note the username you have used and can assure you that your life won't be ruined by this incident however it turns out.

At worst you will receive a conviction and a significant financial penalty (fine plus costs).

All you can do at the moment is wait for a letter to arrive, and then come back on here to ask for further advice.

If this was truly a one-off incident (and I've no reason to doubt you) then you will need to write back basically saying:

1. That you apologise for your action.
2. That you now realise its seriousness, that you have learnt from it and that you will not repeat.
3. And that you ask for TfL to consider an out of court settlement that compensates them for the fare avoided plus their costs in dealing with the matter.

There are other more experienced people on here who can also offer advice (I'm not really up to speed with what goes on in London) but that would seem your best option.

It’s honestly feels that way. I have never felt so hopeless in my life. I’ve had anxiety in the past but not like this. I’m not proud, but I’ve started to get suicidal thoughts again due to this. I will write all of that in the letter. I just hope everything with be alright at the end. Thanks for your response. I’m praying they are lenient and settle out of court.

 

[Mylifeisruined]

It seems that those who have been successful in obtaining an out of court settlement with TfL have engaged a solicitor to negotiate on their behalf.

NB this generally doesn't come cheap - it may be cheaper to accept the guilty charge and pay the court fine and associated costs. Only you can decide if that's worth while.

In theory you can use any solicitor that deals in criminal matters however a specialist may be required.

I was thinking of getting one but I do get your point. I just want to avoid a criminal charge on my record at any cost. People have nicely told me it won’t ruin my life but I really want this hanging over my head it will cause me anxiety and stress forever.

 

[Mylifeisruined]

By saying "it's been used a lot but not by myself" do you mean it's been used by the correct person or do you suspect someone else has been using it incorrectly?

(You may, or may not, choose to answer this question)

TfL may, or may not, have further evidence of the nature of past use.

It could be either. I don’t know. But I don’t know what TFL will do regarding the past trips. What has been done in the past?

 

[AlterEgo]

It could be either. I don’t know. But I don’t know what TFL will do regarding the past trips. What has been done in the past?

They will audit the pass to see how many journeys have been taken and if they suspect you have been using it because of the pattern of use they will take this into account.

If they prosecute you then it will be normally for a single low level Bylaw offence for expediency. If they settle then they will want a substantial administration fee plus the full amount of fares they believe were evaded.

 

[Mylifeisruined]

They will audit the pass to see how many journeys have been taken and if they suspect you have been using it because of the pattern of use they will take this into account.

If they prosecute you then it will be normally for a single low level Bylaw offence for expediency. If they settle then they will want a substantial administration fee plus the full amount of fares they believe were evaded.

And usually when they settle out of court what has been the circumstances? From what I’ve gathered it’s quite rare. But if anyone know any examples that would be much appreciated.

 

[30907]

I was thinking of getting one but I do get your point. I just want to avoid a criminal charge on my record at any cost. People have nicely told me it won’t ruin my life

They are not just being nice

When TFL prosecute, based on threads on this forum, they normally use their byelaws and focus on the one time you were caught
This sort of conviction is non-recordable, so you don't get a criminal record. It may appear on an Enhanced DBS, but - so long as you don't attempt to conceal it - it is not a bar to employment, though an employer may ask for an explanation.

 

[Mylifeisruined]

They are not just being nice

When TFL prosecute, based on threads on this forum, they normally use their byelaws and focus on the one time you were caught
This sort of conviction is non-recordable, so you don't get a criminal record. It may appear on an Enhanced DBS, but - so long as you don't attempt to conceal it - it is not a bar to employment, though an employer may ask for an explanation.

I guess I’ll just have to wait until the letter comes. I plan to update what happens at each stage because I would have like that to be here for me now. My mental health is seriously not in a good place right now so I hope this ends soon.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I guess I’ll just have to wait until the letter comes. I plan to update what happens at each stage because I would have like that to be here for me now. My mental health is seriously not in a good place right now so I hope this ends soon.

On the mental health side, a couple of things:
- if you have some sort of support (counsellor, medical professional, support group - that sort of thing) then share your worries with them
- I get the impression that this has happened very recently. Please believe me when I say that the immediate stress of being caught will pass with time
- remember that the Samaritans are out there. See https://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/contact-samaritan/

To try and look at this objectively, the most likely outcome will be a court conviction which as people have said means a criminal record. But on the scale of crimes, this is actually pretty minor. As long as it's not repeated, most of your friends, family and employers will see it as a mistake and not as proof that you are fundamentally dishonest. So you won't be shunned, and you are unlikely to be sacked or struggle to find a job because of it.

Getting caught fare-dodging is embarrassing and expensive. But please let me join in reassuring you that it's not the end of the world.

 

[Mylifeisruined]

On the mental health side, a couple of things:
- if you have some sort of support (counsellor, medical professional, support group - that sort of thing) then share your worries with them
- I get the impression that this has happened very recently. Please believe me when I say that the immediate stress of being caught will pass with time
- remember that the Samaritans are out there. See https://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/contact-samaritan/

To try and look at this objectively, the most likely outcome will be a court conviction which as people have said means a criminal record. But on the scale of crimes, this is actually pretty minor. As long as it's not repeated, most of your friends, family and employers will see it as a mistake and not as proof that you are fundamentally dishonest. So you won't be shunned, and you are unlikely to be sacked or struggle to find a job because of it.

Getting caught fare-dodging is embarrassing and expensive. But please let me join in reassuring you that it's not the end of the world.

I really hope they are lenient but I need to realistic and prepared for any outcome. In the meantime I’ll update on here if anyone still wants to give me advice. Will take everything on board and NEVER do anything like this again.

 

[6Gman]

I really hope they are lenient but I need to realistic and prepared for any outcome. In the meantime I’ll update on here if anyone still wants to give me advice. Will take everything on board and NEVER do anything like this again.

Look on us as a bunch of mates you've never met (and will never meet) but who are here to help. So keep in touch as things develop.

And try not to worry too much.

In my early 20s I missed a renewal date on an MOT and picked up a conviction. It has never, ever been an issue with any employer. I've been a local councillor, worked on the railway and in local government, was invited (didn't take it up for personal reasons) to be Mayor of a borough council, even passed screening for royal train duties.

So a one-off is embarrassing and upsetting but life goes on!

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Just to clarify a few things. Transport for London do things a little differently to their National Rail counterparts. They will send you a verification letter asking you to admit or deny the offence. There is also the chance for you to gove any mitigating factors you would like them to take into account before they decide how to proceed. It is very important that you engage with and reply to this letter. When it comes posta copy of it in this thread (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

TfL take a dim view of misuse of Freedom Passes and they often prosecute under the TfL Bylaws in the Magistrates Court. Unlike National Rail train operating companies TfL do not offer out of court settlements but in some iimited circumstances they have been known to issue a final warning instead of prosecuting.

Below is a link to TfL's Revenue Enforcement and Prosecutions Policy, which it might be worth reading.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/revenue-enforcement-and-prosecution-policy.pdf

 

[Mylifeisruined]

I really hope they are lenient but I need to realistic and prepared for any outcome. In the meantime I’ll update on here if anyone still wants to give me advice. Will take everything on board and NEVER do anything like this again.

On the mental health side, a couple of things:
- if you have some sort of support (counsellor, medical professional, support group - that sort of thing) then share your worries with them
- I get the impression that this has happened very recently. Please believe me when I say that the immediate stress of being caught will pass with time
- remember that the Samaritans are out there. See https://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/contact-samaritan/

To try and look at this objectively, the most likely outcome will be a court conviction which as people have said means a criminal record. But on the scale of crimes, this is actually pretty minor. As long as it's not repeated, most of your friends, family and employers will see it as a mistake and not as proof that you are fundamentally dishonest. So you won't be shunned, and you are unlikely to be sacked or struggle to find a job because of it.

Getting caught fare-dodging is embarrassing and expensive. But please let me join in reassuring you that it's not the end of the world.

Thanks for the advice I’ve just left the hospital due to a mental breakdown. I’m trying not to think about it but my mind and body went to overdrive and I had to be admitted. I’ll try to be better handling this. I just want this to be over with.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 May 2023 ==

Look on us as a bunch of mates you've never met (and will never meet) but who are here to help. So keep in touch as things develop.

And try not to worry too much.

In my early 20s I missed a renewal date on an MOT and picked up a conviction. It has never, ever been an issue with any employer. I've been a local councillor, worked on the railway and in local government, was invited (didn't take it up for personal reasons) to be Mayor of a borough council, even passed screening for royal train duties.

So a one-off is embarrassing and upsetting but life goes on!

Thanks for the reassurance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 May 2023 ==

Welcome to the forum!

Just to clarify a few things. Transport for London do things a little differently to their National Rail counterparts. They will send you a verification letter asking you to admit or deny the offence. There is also the chance for you to gove any mitigating factors you would like them to take into account before they decide how to proceed. It is very important that you engage with and reply to this letter. When it comes posta copy of it in this thread (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

TfL take a dim view of misuse of Freedom Passes and they often prosecute under the TfL Bylaws in the Magistrates Court. Unlike National Rail train operating companies TfL do not offer out of court settlements but in some iimited circumstances they have been known to issue a final warning instead of prosecuting.

Below is a link to TfL's Revenue Enforcement and Prosecutions Policy, which it might be worth reading.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/revenue-enforcement-and-prosecution-policy.pdf

Thanks for all this information. I am yet to receive the letter and will be willing to post it here when it comes. Regarding the mitigation circumstances would this need to be in the same letter as the first one you mentioned? Lastly, I’ll make sure to redacted all the personal information.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2023 ==


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2023 ==

This first letter came today. You guys have probably seen this so many times. Please help if you can.

 

[JBuchananGB]

A basic response would be something like:
Dear Sir/Madam
On 19th May I was stopped by a member of TfL staff, when I made a journey using a 60+ Oyster card of which I was not the holder. I regret this and apologise unreservedly. I now understand that such behaviour costs TfL thousands of pounds every year. I am willing to pay the full fare for the journey and the costs you have incurred dealing with the matter. I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours sincerely.
Perhaps other forum members would suggest embellishments, but keeping things simple is usually good advice. This is a business transaction, the kind TfL deal with every day. They are not interested in any background reasons which led to the behaviour.

 

[Mylifeisruined]

A basic response would be something like:
Dear Sir/Madam
On 19th May I was stopped by a member of TfL staff, when I made a journey using a 60+ Oyster card of which I was not the holder. I regret this and apologise unreservedly. I now understand that such behaviour costs TfL thousands of pounds every year. I am willing to pay the full fare for the journey and the costs you have incurred dealing with the matter. I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours sincerely.
Perhaps other forum members would suggest embellishments, but keeping things simple is usually good advice. This is a business transaction, the kind TfL deal with every day. They are not interested in any background reasons which led to the behaviour.

I actually didn’t make the journey I was stopped as I tapped in. It probably doesn’t make a difference but just thought it was worth mentioning. Also, I should not provide any mitigating circumstances at all?

 

[Cantab26]

I should not provide any mitigating circumstances at all?

That rather depends on whether there are any mitigating circumstances and, if so, what they might be.

 

[Mylifeisruined]

That rather depends on whether there are any mitigating circumstances and, if so, what they might be.

I do have some but I prefer not to fully disclose if that’s alright. I would do want to know how long it should. I am incredibly apologetic and I want them to know that but I don’t want it to be deterrence for a less severe outcome for me.

 

[AlterEgo]

I do have some but I prefer not to fully disclose if that’s alright. I would do want to know how long it should. I am incredibly apologetic and I want them to know that but I don’t want it to be deterrence for a less severe outcome for me.

The whole reason you are invited to give your mitigation by reply is to lessen the severity of any punishment, or sentence at the court, providing that mitigation is valid.

 

[Mylifeisruined]

The whole reason you are invited to give your mitigation by reply is to lessen the severity of any punishment, or sentence at the court, providing that mitigation is valid.

Okay, I will include it in the reply and I hopefully they see it as valid. In this response am I suppose to attached any supporting documents with it as well.