Caught buying ticket onboard with potential railcard issue - TPE

[lizichungus]

Hello,

I was issued a TIR by a member of TPE staff whilst travelling, and have not yet received a letter. I'll try to leave emotions out of the details and stick to a list of facts about the journey.

• I boarded my train after hurrying to the station and realised I never finalised my purchase on Trainline
• I then, upon realising, immediately purchased a 16-25 Railcard discounted Off-Peak Day Return, 2-3 minutes after the train departure. I did not intend to avoid the fare and have a 16-25 railcard
• Nearing the end of the journey (over 10 minutes later), I am asked to present my ticket and railcard, which are then both scanned and inspected.
• The staff member briefly continues walking and might have scanned another ticket, then came back to me, re-scanned my ticket and told me how it had been bought after departure. There is no mention about railcard discrepancy.
• I apologised profusely multiple times and told him it was because I was rushing everywhere
• I then upon his request follow him inside the terminating station where he takes my ID for details and spends a few minutes typing these in, content that I am the person on the ID given
• A picture of my ticket is taken, and I am then asked for my railcard
• As the details on the card do not match those of my ID, I am then asked very confrontationally who the railcard belongs to, and I profess twice that it is mine.
• He then asks me how this could be the case, to which I very quietly inform him that I am a transsexual. I don't think he initially believed me - he stared at me for a good few seconds after I told him, which felt like he was looking for features of my previous gender on my body and I felt really humiliated and embarrassed by this.
• I told him about my ongoing e-mail thread with the Railcard Help Team regarding changing my name to which he shared experiences of his own trans friends having issues with changing their names
• I am then given my paper report and let out of the station

I fear that TPE will attempt to prosecute me for the byelaw offence of boarding without a ticket and after checking my purchase history (I frequently make this journey) multiple fraudulent railcard discounts over the past 3 years.

It appears that is not a requirement to update your name on a 16-25 Railcard. I've read through the terms and the only one potentially applicable is the following:

2.9 The photo of the cardholder must meet our guidelines and be recognisable as the cardholder

As the member of staff had previously checked my railcard and not brought it up earlier - I would think it is fair to say that the photo is recognisable as myself, albeit 3 years ago. It was only after seeing further identification whilst taking photographs for evidence that I was accused of using someone else's railcard - surely meaning that I was recognisable as the cardholder when he checked it on the train.

Funnily enough, the first thing I did when I woke up was reply via email to an unhelpful member of the Railcard Help Team regarding this on my Railcard (they've changed my name and not title despite sending a copy of my deed poll and won't tell me how to change it on my Railcard. I've since learned after today I need to call them). I've been pro-active in trying to get it changed literally to avoid situations like this where I have to tell some poor member of staff that I'm a transsexual - it's really embarrassing!!

I'm aware that I've committed the byelaw offence of not buying the ticket before I got on board but something doesn't feel right about me potentially having to prove to people that I used to live in a different gender role than I do today, but it looks like I'll have to when I am asked to provide TPE with a statement (in which I will apologise and ask if there is any way that this doesn't have to be brought to court). I feel like I could be being indirectly discriminated against because of my gender identity here, as I feel like I have to pre-emptively tell even more people that I'm trans (I really hate doing this) and have to try and prove it to them to a point where they'll accept it - and I'm not in the position to really complain about it as they do have me for the buying on board! I've been trying to draft a reply but I'm having difficulty maintaining a positive tone being apologetic, higlighting I was fully intending to pay, whilst simultaneously being upset about how I was and am being treated. I don't even like complaining about this type of thing either

I've only just moved back home after graduating from university too and if they don't offer me an out of court settlement because of a couple of minutes I'll lose a lot of employment prospects in most of the sectors I want to work in (my degree involved a lot of numbers). I would have been willing to pay a penalty fare to avoid all of this but I wasn't even given the chance, was really nice to the man who wrote me up yet it feels my life could be over before I've had the chance to properly start it.

Anyway I'll stop with the ranting I'll post an update when I get my letter. I'm sure at least one of you might find this interesting as I've searched for hours and can't find anything similar!

Thank you

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum.

As you say, this has got the potential to fall into being discrimination on the basis of a protected characteristic. So I strongly suspect that when the report reaches the back office, it will go into the 'too difficult' pile and you will hear no more about it - or maybe only the late purchase will be taken forward, which is a point where you accept that you were in the wrong.

But just in case, round up all the evidence for you having tried to get your Railcard to fully reflect today's name, title and so on. Hang on to your note in your first post of what happened when. If it does turn out that you need to fight this, it's worth having the facts and your evidence easily to hand.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

TPE are normally pretty pragmatic when it comes to dealing with cases as long as you co-operate with them, and haven't come to their attention before. They will write to you in the next few weeks asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. When the letter arrives post a copy of it in this thread with personal details redacted, and we can assist with how to reply.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello,

I was issued a TIR by a member of TPE staff whilst travelling, and have not yet received a letter. I'll try to leave emotions out of the details and stick to a list of facts about the journey.

• I boarded my train after hurrying to the station and realised I never finalised my purchase on Trainline
• I then, upon realising, immediately purchased a 16-25 Railcard discounted Off-Peak Day Return, 2-3 minutes after the train departure. I did not intend to avoid the fare and have a 16-25 railcard
• Nearing the end of the journey (over 10 minutes later), I am asked to present my ticket and railcard, which are then both scanned and inspected.
• The staff member briefly continues walking and might have scanned another ticket, then came back to me, re-scanned my ticket and told me how it had been bought after departure. There is no mention about railcard discrepancy.
• I apologised profusely multiple times and told him it was because I was rushing everywhere
• I then upon his request follow him inside the terminating station where he takes my ID for details and spends a few minutes typing these in, content that I am the person on the ID given
• A picture of my ticket is taken, and I am then asked for my railcard
• As the details on the card do not match those of my ID, I am then asked very confrontationally who the railcard belongs to, and I profess twice that it is mine.
• He then asks me how this could be the case, to which I very quietly inform him that I am a transsexual. I don't think he initially believed me - he stared at me for a good few seconds after I told him, which felt like he was looking for features of my previous gender on my body and I felt really humiliated and embarrassed by this.
• I told him about my ongoing e-mail thread with the Railcard Help Team regarding changing my name to which he shared experiences of his own trans friends having issues with changing their names
• I am then given my paper report and let out of the station

I fear that TPE will attempt to prosecute me for the byelaw offence of boarding without a ticket and after checking my purchase history (I frequently make this journey) multiple fraudulent railcard discounts over the past 3 years.

It appears that is not a requirement to update your name on a 16-25 Railcard. I've read through the terms and the only one potentially applicable is the following:

As the member of staff had previously checked my railcard and not brought it up earlier - I would think it is fair to say that the photo is recognisable as myself, albeit 3 years ago. It was only after seeing further identification whilst taking photographs for evidence that I was accused of using someone else's railcard - surely meaning that I was recognisable as the cardholder when he checked it on the train.

Funnily enough, the first thing I did when I woke up was reply via email to an unhelpful member of the Railcard Help Team regarding this on my Railcard (they've changed my name and not title despite sending a copy of my deed poll and won't tell me how to change it on my Railcard. I've since learned after today I need to call them). I've been pro-active in trying to get it changed literally to avoid situations like this where I have to tell some poor member of staff that I'm a transsexual - it's really embarrassing!!

I'm aware that I've committed the byelaw offence of not buying the ticket before I got on board but something doesn't feel right about me potentially having to prove to people that I used to live in a different gender role than I do today, but it looks like I'll have to when I am asked to provide TPE with a statement (in which I will apologise and ask if there is any way that this doesn't have to be brought to court). I feel like I could be being indirectly discriminated against because of my gender identity here, as I feel like I have to pre-emptively tell even more people that I'm trans (I really hate doing this) and have to try and prove it to them to a point where they'll accept it - and I'm not in the position to really complain about it as they do have me for the buying on board! I've been trying to draft a reply but I'm having difficulty maintaining a positive tone being apologetic, higlighting I was fully intending to pay, whilst simultaneously being upset about how I was and am being treated. I don't even like complaining about this type of thing either

I've only just moved back home after graduating from university too and if they don't offer me an out of court settlement because of a couple of minutes I'll lose a lot of employment prospects in most of the sectors I want to work in (my degree involved a lot of numbers). I would have been willing to pay a penalty fare to avoid all of this but I wasn't even given the chance, was really nice to the man who wrote me up yet it feels my life could be over before I've had the chance to properly start it.

Anyway I'll stop with the ranting I'll post an update when I get my letter. I'm sure at least one of you might find this interesting as I've searched for hours and can't find anything similar!

Thank you

I suspect they will just pursue you for the ticket issue not the railcard name / title part of things.

But head back here for advice on either as you will get good help here. Including help with drafting your reply.

When does the railcard expire and thus when you will get a new one that you can apply for in different name etc (as opposed to just renewing existing that may perpetuate their erroneous details).?

Welcome by the way.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hello,

I was issued a TIR by a member of TPE staff whilst travelling, and have not yet received a letter. I'll try to leave emotions out of the details and stick to a list of facts about the journey.

• I boarded my train after hurrying to the station and realised I never finalised my purchase on Trainline
• I then, upon realising, immediately purchased a 16-25 Railcard discounted Off-Peak Day Return, 2-3 minutes after the train departure. I did not intend to avoid the fare and have a 16-25 railcard
• Nearing the end of the journey (over 10 minutes later), I am asked to present my ticket and railcard, which are then both scanned and inspected.
• The staff member briefly continues walking and might have scanned another ticket, then came back to me, re-scanned my ticket and told me how it had been bought after departure. There is no mention about railcard discrepancy.
• I apologised profusely multiple times and told him it was because I was rushing everywhere
• I then upon his request follow him inside the terminating station where he takes my ID for details and spends a few minutes typing these in, content that I am the person on the ID given
• A picture of my ticket is taken, and I am then asked for my railcard
• As the details on the card do not match those of my ID, I am then asked very confrontationally who the railcard belongs to, and I profess twice that it is mine.
• He then asks me how this could be the case, to which I very quietly inform him that I am a transsexual. I don't think he initially believed me - he stared at me for a good few seconds after I told him, which felt like he was looking for features of my previous gender on my body and I felt really humiliated and embarrassed by this.
• I told him about my ongoing e-mail thread with the Railcard Help Team regarding changing my name to which he shared experiences of his own trans friends having issues with changing their names
• I am then given my paper report and let out of the station

I fear that TPE will attempt to prosecute me for the byelaw offence of boarding without a ticket and after checking my purchase history (I frequently make this journey) multiple fraudulent railcard discounts over the past 3 years.

It appears that is not a requirement to update your name on a 16-25 Railcard. I've read through the terms and the only one potentially applicable is the following:

As the member of staff had previously checked my railcard and not brought it up earlier - I would think it is fair to say that the photo is recognisable as myself, albeit 3 years ago. It was only after seeing further identification whilst taking photographs for evidence that I was accused of using someone else's railcard - surely meaning that I was recognisable as the cardholder when he checked it on the train.

Funnily enough, the first thing I did when I woke up was reply via email to an unhelpful member of the Railcard Help Team regarding this on my Railcard (they've changed my name and not title despite sending a copy of my deed poll and won't tell me how to change it on my Railcard. I've since learned after today I need to call them). I've been pro-active in trying to get it changed literally to avoid situations like this where I have to tell some poor member of staff that I'm a transsexual - it's really embarrassing!!

I'm aware that I've committed the byelaw offence of not buying the ticket before I got on board but something doesn't feel right about me potentially having to prove to people that I used to live in a different gender role than I do today, but it looks like I'll have to when I am asked to provide TPE with a statement (in which I will apologise and ask if there is any way that this doesn't have to be brought to court). I feel like I could be being indirectly discriminated against because of my gender identity here, as I feel like I have to pre-emptively tell even more people that I'm trans (I really hate doing this) and have to try and prove it to them to a point where they'll accept it - and I'm not in the position to really complain about it as they do have me for the buying on board! I've been trying to draft a reply but I'm having difficulty maintaining a positive tone being apologetic, higlighting I was fully intending to pay, whilst simultaneously being upset about how I was and am being treated. I don't even like complaining about this type of thing either

I've only just moved back home after graduating from university too and if they don't offer me an out of court settlement because of a couple of minutes I'll lose a lot of employment prospects in most of the sectors I want to work in (my degree involved a lot of numbers). I would have been willing to pay a penalty fare to avoid all of this but I wasn't even given the chance, was really nice to the man who wrote me up yet it feels my life could be over before I've had the chance to properly start it.

Anyway I'll stop with the ranting I'll post an update when I get my letter. I'm sure at least one of you might find this interesting as I've searched for hours and can't find anything similar!

Thank you

Ok, so there are a few issues to unpack here.

- Clearly, as you know, you committed the Bylaw offence of boarding without a valid ticket. I assume this was at a large station with ticket purchasing facilities. I don't think much can be done about this now; TPE report people for this routinely and at least in this aspect, I don't think you have been discriminated against or treated any differently. This was an inevitability once the inspector realised you had boarded without a ticket.

- The inspector acted appropriately by questioning you about the purchase after boarding. It's likely that when he first asked to see your railcard it was a cursory check, and didn't bother looking at your name/title or your picture in any great detail.

- I'm not sure the inspector did anything gravely wrong by asking why your ID did not match your railcard, but if the picture is still identifiable as you I think he really should have turned his brain on a bit. Would it be fair to assume your former name is a traditionally masculine one, and your current name is a traditionally feminine one? It is possible he did not understand the complexities of transition (cis people do not typically have a great track on what, if anything, you need to change your name/sex marker/title on all the dozens of documents a person might have, and how these can vary greatly from the ease of simply changing a photograph). Nonetheless, I can see how frustrating and dehumanising it is to explain your trans status to a stranger; there should be no need to do this in the course of everyday life, and I can understand how uncomfortable it must be when you felt the inspector tried to "clock" you. I am never questioned about my gender identity as a cis man, nor does anyone "transvestigate" me, and on these grounds it is fair for you to say you felt humiliated or upset at the different - and worse - treatment.

- Sorry to hear about your troubles with the railcard too. Very recently I had cause to try and get my name changed on a Disabled Railcard and it was a nightmare. The reason for this was it was originally awarded to me over 15 years ago when I had a different surname, which I subsequently changed by deed poll. These days I am known by my current name by some rail staff as I run a YouTube channel and I did not want staff questioning why my railcard (which, being a Disabled one, has no photo!). In the end I had to wait for renewal and could edit the details online; no proof was required. If your own railcard is near renewal I may be tempted to try this route as it was friction-free in the end.

- Try not to worry too much about writing a response just yet. You have already done the most pragmatic thing here which is to bullet point exactly what happened and when and this will help with maintaining clarity. Wait for the letter to arrive from TPE.

- It's unclear if/how they will proceed with this. The inspector will have had to write a statement himself, in which one would hope he was truthful about the interaction and mentioned his suspicion at your railcard and your explanation that you are trans. If I was presented with all the facts you mention when reading the report in the prosecution/revenue office, I think I would file it under no further action. It would just have so much potential for complication and there is a risk of an indirect discrimination complaint here. However, we will have to wait and see what they say.

- Finally, don't worry about a criminal record. TPE routinely settle out of court if you engage with them, and even if they write to you there is a very good chance the forum can help write a response which will secure this; it would usually be the fare due plus about £100 in admin fees.

 

[talldave]

@lizichungus it might be worth considering just buying another railcard with your up to date ID to avoid further hassle? I appreciate that that might feel like an unjust "penalty", but you could be waiting forever for the rail industry to catch up with rest of the world.

If you know someone with an Annual Gold Card using their discount it'd be a tenner well spent (I'd offer myself if I hadn't become an Oysterite and abandoned my AGC!). There must be numerous Hatton/Lapworth AGC owners on here who could help? An idea for a new sub-group perhaps - AGC Railcard sponsors??

 

[Lewisham2221]

@lizichungus it might be worth considering just buying another railcard with your up to date ID to avoid further hassle? I appreciate that that might feel like an unjust "penalty", but you could be waiting forever for the rail industry to catch up with rest of the world.

If you know someone with an Annual Gold Card using their discount it'd be a tenner well spent (I'd offer myself if I hadn't become an Oysterite and abandoned my AGC!). There must be numerous Hatton/Lapworth AGC owners on here who could help? An idea for a new sub-group perhaps - AGC Railcard sponsors??

That absolutely shouldn't be necessary though. What if someone simply got married during the validity of their Railcard? Their ID wouldn't match either. I can totally understand why you wouldn't allow unlimited changes of name/photo - to prevent sharing - but one change, or at the very least a quick and simple process of providing any necessary documents and having the change processed, should be an absolute minimum.

 

[talldave]

That absolutely shouldn't be necessary though. What if someone simply got married during the validity of their Railcard? Their ID wouldn't match either. I can totally understand why you wouldn't allow unlimited changes of name/photo - to prevent sharing - but one change, or at the very least a quick and simple process of providing any necessary documents and having the change processed, should be an absolute minimum.

I agree. But you'll probably find they've got a process for surname/mrs changes. The OP is struggling to get a gender change and it doesn't seem to be going very smoothly. It shouldn't be the case.

 

[Haywain]

What if someone simply got married during the validity of their Railcard?

No, but the photo (and gender) would.

 

[Lewisham2221]

No, but the photo (and gender) would.

Maybe I was misreading it, but I thought the OP said the photo matched? Either way, that it's 2024 and the railway hasn't got a hassle free process for sorting this is, quite frankly, unacceptable.

 

[Haywain]

I thought the OP said the photo matched?

I am guessing but with an old photo and a name that would be seen as for a different gender, it could have been seen as a photo of a sibling.

 

[AlterEgo]

I agree. But you'll probably find they've got a process for surname/mrs changes. The OP is struggling to get a gender change and it doesn't seem to be going very smoothly. It shouldn't be the case.

The OP is having the specific issue of changing their name on the Railcard to reflect their legal name, which is contained on their ID (which may be a passport or driving licence). There is no gender marker on a railcard, although a gendered title may appear on a physical railcard (AFAIK it doesn't on digital).

As a date point, my Disabled Railcard does not contain a gendered title.

Maybe I was misreading it, but I thought the OP said the photo matched?

The OP does not say the photo "matches" but rather that the photo is recognisable as themselves. It may be that the photo is old and reflects an earlier phase in their gender transition, but is of the same person, and in their view recognisably so, and hence it was unreasonable to suggest it was someone else's railcard.

As a minor point of order, there is no requirement for a Railcard to bear the same name as anyone's ID. Mine didn't for 14 years and it was no less valid as a result.

 

[Adam Williams]

Funnily enough, the first thing I did when I woke up was reply via email to an unhelpful member of the Railcard Help Team regarding this on my Railcard (they've changed my name and not title despite sending a copy of my deed poll and won't tell me how to change it on my Railcard. I've since learned after today I need to call them).

Honestly, there are a couple of smaller Railcard retailers who are likely to give you a better support experience, and I'd strongly suggest considering one when your current railcard expires. You shouldn't be forced to phone somebody up to get this sorted, it's not 2002.

it might be worth considering just buying another railcard with your up to date ID to avoid further hassle? I appreciate that that might feel like an unjust "penalty", but you could be waiting forever for the rail industry to catch up with rest of the world.

I don't think this advice comes from a bad place but I really don't think OP should have to pay anything to sort this.

There is no gender marker on a railcard, although a gendered title may appear on a physical railcard (AFAIK it doesn't on digital).

As a date point, my Disabled Railcard does not contain a gendered title.

When I last checked, RDG's railcards have got the title encoded in the barcode which is then displayed to ticket inspectors. I'm not sure if they visually display it when the railcard is opened, or not. It's possible the disabled railcard could be handled differently, but I sort of suspect not based on some previous conversations about the DPRC.



When I implemented TrainSplit's railcards backend, I decided, in line with best practice, there was no reason to collect the title and so there is no title encoded in the barcode. I think this is the same stance a number of third-party railcard retailers have also taken. This means that the only things that need changing are the name and photo.

 

[talldave]

I don't think this advice comes from a bad place but I really don't think OP should have to pay anything to sort this.

I agree, but I was giving the OP a means to end the potential for awkward situations immediately without the need for further pleading on the phone.

Doing so could change the tone of the communication about the Railcard: "Due to your inability to deal with my request in a timely manner I've had to spend £xx on a new Railcard. I look forward to your refunding this cost as acceptance that your service fell below acceptable standards". Some gentle nudges about Equality legislation wouldn’t go amiss either, but I'm not qualified to know the appropriate angle there.

 

[lizichungus]

Thank you all for your welcomes and taking interest.

I have ended up just buying a new railcard from a third party retailer as suggested - it seems Railcard wanted to charge £10 anyway in admin fees for changing it on the card, and it would probably take along side this more than 2 hours in complaining to CS teams to get it done. I had a year left, but paying full price for another gets everything out of the way and saves me from further issues and disappointedly complaining. (I live nowhere near London, no AGC discount for me )

The process of changing names and often advocating the legitimacy of unenrolled deed polls is very repetitive and laborious. This is why I am perhaps scared of TPE proceeding with prosecution or offering an excessive settlement if I end up writing a reply to their letter (when it comes) with mine included to explain, as it is often looked at with suspicion when presenting it and not accepted until I’ve had a long argument over and either threatened/went to several Ombudsmen or said the magic letters DPA or GDPR. I can actually recall the gov.uk URL for deed polls from memory from how many times I’ve done this!

Yes, my old railcard is in the format [gendered title] [first initial] [last name], and my ID carries a different title and first initial. The first CS agent at Railcard had changed my name and not my title. I think to any reasonable person pairing my new name to my old title would seem quite absurd, comparable to maybe a Mrs Adam, Mr Eve, or Prince Diana.

The new one issued through a third party only carries first and last name as per the best practice guidance mentioned previously in the thread.

The flat £10 fee for changing name on a railcard for both digital and physical, is probably unlawful under the right to rectification but I don’t think anyone has gone through the hassle of complaining about this for reasons mentioned before. It’s much easier and simple to just change your government-issued ID and start fresh which shouldn’t be the case but often is, which inevitably leads to cases like mine.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you all for your welcomes and taking interest.

I have ended up just buying a new railcard from a third party retailer as suggested - it seems Railcard wanted to charge £10 anyway in admin fees for changing it on the card, and it would probably take along side this more than 2 hours in complaining to CS teams to get it done. I had a year left, but paying full price for another gets everything out of the way and saves me from further issues and disappointedly complaining. (I live nowhere near London, no AGC discount for me )

The process of changing names and often advocating the legitimacy of unenrolled deed polls is very repetitive and laborious. This is why I am perhaps scared of TPE proceeding with prosecution or offering an excessive settlement if I end up writing a reply to their letter (when it comes) with mine included to explain, as it is often looked at with suspicion when presenting it and not accepted until I’ve had a long argument over and either threatened/went to several Ombudsmen or said the magic letters DPA or GDPR. I can actually recall the gov.uk URL for deed polls from memory from how many times I’ve done this!

Yes, my old railcard is in the format [gendered title] [first initial] [last name], and my ID carries a different title and first initial. The first CS agent at Railcard had changed my name and not my title. I think to any reasonable person pairing my new name to my old title would seem quite absurd, comparable to maybe a Mrs Adam, Mr Eve, or Prince Diana.

The new one issued through a third party only carries first and last name as per the best practice guidance mentioned previously in the thread.

The flat £10 fee for changing name on a railcard for both digital and physical, is probably unlawful under the right to rectification but I don’t think anyone has gone through the hassle of complaining about this for reasons mentioned before. It’s much easier and simple to just change your government-issued ID and start fresh which shouldn’t be the case but often is, which inevitably leads to cases like mine.

Frustrating to read you have had to go down this route given you had a year left - but I can totally understand why you felt this was the 'least frustrating' route to take.

Hopefully the separate ticket issue can be resolved as best as possible - of course head back here for advice on that as and when required.

 

[lizichungus]

Thank you all.

I received a letter today to inform me that no further action will be taken after reviewing my case.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thank you all.

I received a letter today to inform me that no further action will be taken after reviewing my case.

Thanks for letting us know.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you all.

I received a letter today to inform me that no further action will be taken after reviewing my case.

Pleased to hear that.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you all.

I received a letter today to inform me that no further action will be taken after reviewing my case.

Good to hear. I do suspect once the back office read the report they simply decided it was too fraught with risk on their part. Sorry you had a difficult experience with the inspector.