Catering entitlement with Seatfrog upgrade

[jazzy]

I recently used Seatfrog to upgrade myself and my 1 year old daughter to first class for a Plymouth to Bristol trip with CrossyCountry, in order to have a more comfortable experience (I’m really not a fan of CrossCountry). There was no catering offered which was disappointing. We had enough food / water with us but I was hoping for a cup of coffee and a biscuit

I assume there’s no entitlement to catering and that it’s just luck if it’s available? On previous trips elsewhere on CrossCountry we’ve been very generously looked after in first class with more food offered than we could eat!

 

[Deerfold]

I recently used Seatfrog to upgrade myself and my 1 year old daughter to first class for a Plymouth to Bristol trip with CrossyCountry, in order to have a more comfortable experience (I’m really not a fan of CrossCountry). There was no catering offered which was disappointing. We had enough food / water with us but I was hoping for a cup of coffee and a biscuit

I assume there’s no entitlement to catering and that it’s just luck if it’s available? On previous trips elsewhere on CrossCountry we’ve been very generously looked after in first class with more food offered than we could eat!

Sadly, that seems to be (increasingly) fairly common with XC.

 

[jazzy]

Sadly, that seems to be (increasingly) fairly common with XC.

I see that’s it’s all ‘subject to availability’ at https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/tickets/ticket-types/first-class

 

[styles]

I recently used Seatfrog to upgrade myself and my 1 year old daughter to first class for a Plymouth to Bristol trip with CrossyCountry, in order to have a more comfortable experience (I’m really not a fan of CrossCountry). There was no catering offered which was disappointing. We had enough food / water with us but I was hoping for a cup of coffee and a biscuit

I assume there’s no entitlement to catering and that it’s just luck if it’s available? On previous trips elsewhere on CrossCountry we’ve been very generously looked after in first class with more food offered than we could eat!

Catering is pretty much always advertised as 'complimentary', meaning there's no entitlement to it.

In practice a few operators will issue a token refund or travel voucher if catering is unavailable, more so when it would normally be a substantial offering; but it's purely a goodwill gesture if they choose to do this, and it relies on you putting a complaint in basically.

It's unrelated to SeatFrog.

 

[Watershed]

I recently used Seatfrog to upgrade myself and my 1 year old daughter to first class for a Plymouth to Bristol trip with CrossyCountry, in order to have a more comfortable experience (I’m really not a fan of CrossCountry). There was no catering offered which was disappointing. We had enough food / water with us but I was hoping for a cup of coffee and a biscuit

I assume there’s no entitlement to catering and that it’s just luck if it’s available? On previous trips elsewhere on CrossCountry we’ve been very generously looked after in first class with more food offered than we could eat!

I think it is fairly easy to establish a contractual entitlement to catering, incorporated by virtue of the Consumer Rights Act.

Section 50(1) of the Act states:

(1) Every contract to supply a service is to be treated as including as a term of the contract anything that is said or written to the consumer, by or on behalf of the trader, about the trader or the service, if—

(a) it is taken into account by the consumer when deciding to enter into the contract, or

(b) it is taken into account by the consumer when making any decision about the service after entering into the contract.

When deciding whether to upgrade to first class, you might well be influenced by the benefits that XC advertise their first class as having. That would make the benefits a term of the contract.

The page on their website regarding First Class states:

What is included with First Class train tickets?
While different train operators offer different levels of First Class service, at CrossCountry we like to make sure our First Class passengers can make the most of their journey. A First Class ticket comes with larger, more spacious seating, and complimentary refreshments.

Benefits of First Class Train Tickets​

One of the biggest benefits of travelling First Class with CrossCountry is the complimentary refreshments. Our First Class Food & Drink offering is available on most First Class services, to help you stay refreshed and content throughout your journey.

They therefore recognise that the refreshments are a major part of the incentive for upgrading. Whilst their First Class Food & Drink page tries to qualify this by stating that:

**First Class catering is subject to, route, journey time and availability.
All items and offers listed are subject to availability, may change or may be withdrawn at any time.

I think they would very much struggle to convince a judge (if it ultimately came to it) that they would be in compliance with the implied term regarding catering by failing to provide any catering at all. That is, subject to it being a service where the timings and catering map indicate that it will be provided.

Under the Act, a failure to comply with an implied term of the contract gives you the right to a 'price reduction', i.e. a partial refund, given that the other 'repeat performance' is not practicable in the context of a contract for travel where the journey has been completed.

In my experience, TOCs usually try to fob you off with platitudes, discount codes for future travel, or derisory "gestures of goodwill" when you complain about first class catering not being provided. Obviously it depends on how much you paid and how much of an appetite you have to complain and pursue it further, but I wouldn't take no for an answer.

Catering is pretty much always advertised as 'complimentary', meaning there's no entitlement to it.

This is a nonsensical argument often deployed by TOCs but it carries absolutely no weight. You don't need to pay separately for catering for it to be part of the advertised service and thus become incorporated as a term of the contract; see above.

In practice a few operators will issue a token refund or travel voucher if catering is unavailable, more so when it would normally be a substantial offering; but it's purely a goodwill gesture if they choose to do this

They will almost always couch it in those terms (as is the case for complaints in general), but I would argue it is your legal entitlement to get a partial refund, worked out as a percentage of the cost of upgrading, if you were on a service where catering was advertised as being available.

It's unrelated to SeatFrog.

Indeed. SeatFrog are effectively just the ticket retailer here. The liability for the failure to provide the service in accordance with implied terms lies with XC as the TOC.

 

[Mark J]

Spoke to someone I know who works for XC at the weekend.

They advised that changes are occuring with Seatfrog XC 1st class upgrades.

In the near future, the upgrade using Seatfrog will only entitle you to a hot/cold drink. No food/snacks whatsoever.

So if you are using Seatfrog for a longer XC journey, something to keep in mind.

They were also rather scathing of Seatfrog in general.

 

[Watershed]

Spoke to someone I know who works for XC at the weekend.

They advised that changes are occuring with Seatfrog XC 1st class upgrades.

In the near future, the upgrade using Seatfrog will only entitle you to a hot/cold drink. No food/snacks whatsoever.

So if you are using Seatfrog for a longer XC journey, something to keep in mind.

They were also rather scathing of Seatfrog in general.

I've seen someone post that elsewhere but that would be absolutely bonkers if true. Sounds more like messroom gossip to me.

 

[Mark J]

I've seen someone post that elsewhere but that would be absolutely bonkers if true. Sounds more like messroom gossip to me.

Could be, however it did sound to be true - and quite frankly I would not be surprised in the slightest if it was.

Maybe because XC don't get the same money out of a Seatfrog upgrade Vs direct upgrade through them, they've decided to cut down on the 'perks' for the Seatfrogers!

Although XC only generally offer snacks such as crisps, nuts and biscuits. Plus the trolley is not as frequent as it is in GWR 1st Class.

The last time I did Reading to Birmingham, the trolley only passed through once, and that was just after leaving Reading!

 

[MrJeeves]

Although XC only generally offer snacks such as crisps, nuts and biscuits.

Sounds like you've fallen victim to the great CrossCountry scam of "we won't tell you what we actually have"!

They should have bacon rolls, various baguettes and paninis, cold sandwiches, pizza twists, and more.

 

[Egg Centric]

Maybe because XC don't get the same money out of a Seatfrog upgrade Vs direct upgrade through them, they've decided to cut down on the 'perks' for the Seatfrogers!

Is Seatfrog holding a gun to XC's head forcing XC to partner with Seatfrog? This is nuts.

 

[Brubulus]

Is Seatfrog holding a gun to XC's head forcing XC to partner with Seatfrog? This is nuts.

I'd suspect it's the DfTs glorious idea.

 

[bb21]

If this were true then it is absolute insanity to have differential offerings onboard, a logistical and PR nightmare both for the crew and the company. Either up the price if Seatfrog were a poor deal for the company or discontinue the partnership. Not every company has a deal with them so clearly it is not mandatory, unless there is some dodgy untold arrangements going on behind closed doors the public are not aware of.

 

[Benjwri]

I'd suspect it's the DfTs glorious idea.

If it were the DfT’s idea surely they would be using it on something like TPE or LNER, where the product is on greater value? I suspect the DfT would achieve the same aim by just upping the upgrade price.

I wonder if it is related to some kind of bonus XC is trying to achieve.

 

[DDB]

Surely the TOCs set the prices and how many seats they make available (including zero as an option) on Seatfrog. It sounds like first class hosts trying to find a way to do even less.

 

[Brubulus]

The marginal cost of an XC bacon roll must be tiny. First Class Host workload doesn't seem like a particularly good reason either, since there are only 26 first class seats.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'd suspect it's the DfTs glorious idea.

Is Seatfrog holding a gun to XC's head forcing XC to partner with Seatfrog? This is nuts.

I doubt it has anything to do with the DfT. We’re talking about the brains trust at Arriva, after all.

It sounds like first class hosts trying to find a way to do even less.

Is that even possible?!?

 

[Bungle965]

I doubt it has anything to do with the DfT. We’re talking about the brains trust at Arriva, after all.

This does seem like the bigger point, I find it strange that CrossCountry are talking about catering cuts to their services at the behest of the DfT when TPE have just launched an enhanced 1st class menu, Avanti, LNER all doing well, even GWR Pullman appears to be surviving.
I think there is probably a case to be had that this is related to poor middle management within XC which is allowing this Seatfrog and other catering related changes to take place.

 

[Mark J]

Surely the TOCs set the prices and how many seats they make available (including zero as an option) on Seatfrog. It sounds like first class hosts trying to find a way to do even less.

XC do not have 1st Class hosts.

The person who does the catering for standard, usually does the trolley for 1st too.

Which is why more often than not, the catering trolley for standard is usually static in the first class end of the train.

Even the TMs on occasion do 1st Class duties.

I was told that a XC trainset usually consists of two people. The TM and the catering bod.

Increased to four if trainsets are doubled up.

Only one person on later evening services - just the TM.

 

[Watershed]

XC do not have 1st Class hosts.

Yes they do, on the Voyager routes. They just aren't rostered on as many services as the Retail Service Managers (i.e. the person who does the trolley). If there's no First Class Host, the RSM will provide first class catering as you said.

 

[redreni]

Catering is pretty much always advertised as 'complimentary', meaning there's no entitlement to it.

I know Watershed has covered this in some detail, but thumbing through my pocket Oxford English dictionary, I see that complimentary means either 1. praising or approving, or 2. free of charge.

Maybe I need the concise dictionary to find the lesser used meaning "might not exist"?

 

[cholsey-choose]

I can see how 'complimentary' might suggest you have no right to it. After all if it is free, then you haven't paid for it and thus have no right to it. Whereas if it was 'included' then you've bought a right to it as part of your ticket cost.

 

[Tetchytyke]

XC do not have 1st Class hosts.

The person who does the catering for standard, usually does the trolley for 1st too.

XC have dedicated first class hosts on Voyagers, although admittedly not as many of them as they used to have.

XC no longer has first class at all on the Turbostars.

This does seem like the bigger point, I find it strange that CrossCountry are talking about catering cuts to their services at the behest of the DfT when TPE have just launched an enhanced 1st class menu, Avanti, LNER all doing well, even GWR Pullman appears to be surviving.

It's a weird one, alright.

TPE have expanded their catering offer in first class and TPE are moving towards having more dedicated first class hosts. TPE are directly owned by DfT.

XC, who are not directly owned by DfT, are seemingly moving away from dedicated hosts and are downgrading their catering offer in first class. They've abolished first class in its entirety from the Turbostar routes. Their owner, Arriva, attempts to blame the DfT for this.

Now maybe this is cynicism by DfT; I can see they would think that when XC becomes GBR they can bring the first class bells and whistles back and look amazing, as has happened to an extent with TPE.

But my opinion/suspicion is that it is more to do with Arriva management. Arriva have done nothing but cut, cut, and cut some more ever since they took over the franchise. Why break the habit of a lifetime?

I also strongly suspect that XC- possibly at the behest of DfT, but possibly not- want rid of the RSM grade entirely.

 

[Watershed]

It doesn't matter whether it's "complimentary" or "included" - the point is that it is advertised as being part of the service, so it could become an implied term of the contract under section 50 of the Consumer Rights Act.

 

[cholsey-choose]

It doesn't matter whether it's "complimentary" or "included" - the point is that it is advertised as being part of the service, so it could become an implied term of the contract under section 50 of the Consumer Rights Act.

Yeah that's a fair point, just as how in the old days I'd have been peed off if my PC Pro magazine came without a free demo disk.

 

[redreni]

I can see how 'complimentary' might suggest you have no right to it. After all if it is free, then you haven't paid for it and thus have no right to it. Whereas if it was 'included' then you've bought a right to it as part of your ticket cost.

But it's a distinction without a difference.

And the food and drink is not free, it's included when you travel on a first class ticket. It's just, in the UK, businesses are allowed dishonestly to describe things that are included in the cost of a bundle of items as "free" or "complimentary".

Throughout the 80s and 90s I scarcely saw a can of beer 13.5% of which wasn't said to be "free".

In better regulated consumer markets, this isn't allowed. You almost never see "Kostenfrei" in German advertising copy, because unless you're literally giving away free samples on the street, you can't claim that something is free when you mean it's included in the price of something.

 

[cholsey-choose]

But it's a distinction without a difference.

And the food and drink is not free, it's included when you travel on a first class ticket. It's just, in the UK, businesses are allowed dishonestly to describe things that are included in the cost of a bundle of items as "free" or "complimentary".

Throughout the 80s and 90s I scarcely saw a can of beer 13.5% of which wasn't said to be "free".

In better regulated consumer markets, this isn't allowed. You almost never see "Kostenfrei" in German advertising copy, because unless you're literally giving away free samples on the street, you can't claim that something is free when you mean it's included in the price of something.

Eh I think this is one of those things that's theoretically a problem but in practice everybody knows what is meant. A lot of the time (for example with catering in first class, or access to NHS in return for paying taxes) what is meant is 'free at the point of use'. I agree if the train companies try to bail on providing the catering then they should be held to account.

 

[styles]

Eh I think this is one of those things that's theoretically a problem but in practice everybody knows what is meant. A lot of the time (for example with catering in first class, or access to NHS in return for paying taxes) what is meant is 'free at the point of use'. I agree if the train companies try to bail on providing the catering then they should be held to account.

I think it's more a problem that the wording and the attitude of the operators leads people to just say oh ok then, rather than pursue some form of compensation, potentially even a money claim online.

In many ways the Conditions of Travel etc are good because they set clear expectations; in other ways it seems people forget they have consumer rights outwith this contract document.

 

[35B]

But it's a distinction without a difference.

And the food and drink is not free, it's included when you travel on a first class ticket. It's just, in the UK, businesses are allowed dishonestly to describe things that are included in the cost of a bundle of items as "free" or "complimentary".

Throughout the 80s and 90s I scarcely saw a can of beer 13.5% of which wasn't said to be "free".

In better regulated consumer markets, this isn't allowed. You almost never see "Kostenfrei" in German advertising copy, because unless you're literally giving away free samples on the street, you can't claim that something is free when you mean it's included in the price of something.

Being really pedantic, food and drink is provided free. The first class premium applies regardless of the level of service provided, and (for flexible tickets) there is no difference between the prices on (say) LNER and Hull Trains.

I do then agree about the unreasonableness, absent genuinely exceptional circumstances, of not providing it.

 

[styles]

Being really pedantic, food and drink is provided free. The first class premium applies regardless of the level of service provided, and (for flexible tickets) there is no difference between the prices on (say) LNER and Hull Trains.

I do then agree about the unreasonableness, absent genuinely exceptional circumstances, of not providing it.

This would be true if operators didn't use catering as a selling point for 1st class.

Like if you rolled onto a 1st class carriage and were offered food and drink without mention of it before, yes, that's a freebie.

Some blurbs from Google:

Take a virtual tour of our First Class. Offering free meals, Wi-Fi, reclining seats & more we offer a train travel experience that makes you feel at home.

First Class travel includes complimentary food and drink, roomier seats with a guaranteed table and access to our First Class lounges for pre-departure comfort.

Read our Express Plus menu which is available when you travel First Class with TransPennine Express. Complimentary snacks, drinks & desserts await!

Travel First Class on our high speed trains and enjoy complimentary refreshments, better Wi-Fi and tables with power sockets at your spacious seat.

The operators above clearly sell 1st class tickets on the basis of receiving food and drink. It's all well and good putting an asterisk on a web page and saying in tiny print at the bottom that actually you might not get it, but it is clear to 'the man on the Clapham omnibus' that food and drink is a reason to buy 1st class ticket on e.g. LNER, Avanti, TPE, GWR.

 

[cholsey-choose]

This would be true if operators didn't use catering as a selling point for 1st class.

Like if you rolled onto a 1st class carriage and were offered food and drink without mention of it before, yes, that's a freebie.

Some blurbs from Google:









The operators above clearly sell 1st class tickets on the basis of receiving food and drink. It's all well and good putting an asterisk on a web page and saying in tiny print at the bottom that actually you might not get it, but it is clear to 'the man on the Clapham omnibus' that food and drink is a reason to buy 1st class ticket on e.g. LNER, Avanti, TPE, GWR.

I agree with you here, and I suspect you'd have a strong legal case if no food is forthcoming! Have there been any cases about this?