Cashless Society ?

[jon0844]

It's £15 now for contactless payments (has been for a while I think).

While you may be able to collect loads of smartcards, it would be nice to think that you'll be able to use just one that is loaded with data for multiple uses/operators.

Still, it will give something new for enthusiasts to collect.

 

[Zoe]

While you may be able to collect loads of smartcards, it would be nice to think that you'll be able to use just one that is loaded with data for multiple uses/operators.

You could eventually have one card for everything including driving licence and passport. It would also be an ID card.

 

[jon0844]

I think that's a step too far.

I'm not against having an ID card, given I carry my driving license that serves as one, but I don't see any need to combine with a bank card.

I could see a passport and driving license being combined perhaps, but I'd keep certain things separate. Certainly things that need to be updated/replaced at different times. I had enough 'fun' transferring my Oyster card from my old Barclaycard to a new one - as Barclays couldn't/wouldn't do this for me.

Having absolutely everything stored on one single card would be crazy, and if you were going to do that then you may as well embed a chip under the skin and store it all on that - then wave your hand, literally, over a reader. You can imagine how the general public would react to such a suggestion, but it would actually be the most secure option of all!

 

[wintonian]

If TVM's don't accept cash then it means no one has to go and empty them or is that me being cynical again?

 

[jon0844]

Well, that would indeed save the cash handling charges; either the TOC doing the collection and processing itself, or outsourcing it to someone like Securicor.

I am not sad to see cheques all but disappear, and while I was an early adopter to contactless payment cards (and Oyster) and prefer to pay by debit/contactless card whenever I can now, I still carry some cash and coins.

I honestly can't see a day when cash would be rendered obsolete (not in my lifetime anyway), so if we start to see everything moving towards this 'cashless society' then I will be very surprised and disappointed. The furthest I can see it being encouraged is by charging at all ATMs to access money, and introducing a fee for paying in cash (like many business accounts). That would discourage the use of cash, but not eliminate it.

 

[radamfi]

The Dutch have a halfway house where machines accept coins and cards but not notes. This means the machine always has change but doesn't have a vast amount of money in it so is less worth robbing. They are less tolerant of 'special cases' than over here where we would accept not having enough coins as being a good enough reason to buy a ticket on the train whereas in NL they say 'tough' and say you must have enough coins or use a card. But if we had such machines over here we could allow people without enough coins to buy on the train.

 

[phil8715]

Why couldn't they do an e-top up card like they do with payg mobile phones?

You could top it up at an atm, railway stations or even online.

Not everybody has a full current bank account and some basic bank accounts dont give you debit card. You could buy a pre paid credit card but you get charged for transactions, topping it up etc.

 

[Greenback]

The one aspect of Dutch rail that disappoints me is the difficulty in buying tickets if you don't have a Dutch card. I hope we don't end up with a similar arrangement, where the range of cards/smartcards accepted is quite limited, and possibly varied depending on which franchise operates the machines, or you pay extra to use a ticket office.

 

[island]

Even bankrupts can open a basic bank account.

But not all of those accounts give the option of a payment card.

I know that Lloyds TSB and Bank of Scotland's offerings do provide a Visa debit card.

 

[radamfi]

You could buy a pre paid credit card but you get charged for transactions, topping it up etc.

Some prepaid debit cards are better than others. For example, if you get an Orange prepaid Mastercard from an Orange Shop, you don't pay for topping up online or at an Orange shop and you don't pay for transactions. There is a £5 fee for the card, unless you buy it with £15 to start with and in this case the fee is waived.

 

[IanXC]

Trent Barton have Mango cards. EMT are trialling another system for journeys to and from St. Pancras. Within a decade we will be walking around with wallets full of all sorts of different cards.

However new bank cards will also have RFID on them, with a £10 limit, in addition to chip and pin. Perhaps now is the time to standardise before different companies adopt a welter of different cards.

Contactless bank cards are all to a common standard - Visa payWave and Mastercard PayPass - they're both interchangeable and international standards. No idea about all these different travel cards tho

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Why go to the bother of a card.... we could all have a chip installed in our heads which could track our movements and consumption and charge us accordingly. No need for cash, cards, checkout assistants, revenue staff etc.

 

[HSTEd]

That could cause problems with unintentional payments, I suggest the chip be implanted in the wrist so that we can wave our hands Open Sesame style.

Frankly they should either provide TVMs that accept cash, require the guard to sell the full range of tickets on the train (including PRIVs) or reopen the ticket office.

 

[Zoe]

Frankly they should either provide TVMs that accept cash, require the guard to sell the full range of tickets on the train (including PRIVs) or reopen the ticket office.

But why should they if only a minority of people pay by cash?

 

[island]

Guards are already expected to exercise their discretion to offer the full range of tickets on board the train where the ticket selling facilities at the departure station are not accepting the payment method which the passenger tenders (assuming of course it is generally an accepted method). Even when a full-service TVM is in operation passengers may wish to pay by warrant or RTV.

 

[Seacook]

But why should they if only a minority of people pay by cash?

Because cash is legal tender?

 

[Greenback]

I'm not sure exactly how many people pay using cash. If it si a minority, then it is a sizeable one. On train, it looks to me as though it is about 50/50 between card and cash, with shorter journeys more likely to be cash payments.

Perhaps there is still a reluctance among some sections of the community to use a card for low value transactions?

 

[scottishchris]

Legal tender doesn't mean what most people think it means, i.e. Shops, guards, etc have to accept it as payment for a transaction. If you tried to pay in a shop for a can of coke with a £50 note, they could refuse to accept the note, even though it's legal tender, and ask you to put the can back as they are well within their rights to refuse the transaction.
What it does mean is that it has to be accepted as payment towards a debt already incurred. To continue the last example, buy a can of coke in a restaurant, get billed for it once you're finished, a debt situation has been created, and the note has to be accepted (although giving change could be a separate issue!).
In the train ticket circumstance, it could be argued that it is a valid use though, as a debt has already been incurred by starting travel or falling foul of penalty fare rules.

 

[island]

What it does mean is that it has to be accepted as payment towards a debt already incurred. To continue the last example, buy a can of coke in a restaurant, get billed for it once you're finished, a debt situation has been created, and the note has to be accepted (although giving change could be a separate issue!).

Legal tender has to be in the exact amount in England and Wales, i.e. no change.

Scots law is different (which is good, because the only legal tender in Scotland is £1 and £2 coins), and says any reasonable payment method must be accepted. Which I believe is why Aldi and Lidl accept credit cards in Scotland but not England/Wales.

 

[michael769]

In the train ticket circumstance, it could be argued that it is a valid use though, as a debt has already been incurred by starting travel or falling foul of penalty fare rules.

Indeed, I believe that if a passenger boards at an station without any working ticket purchasing facilities then the TOC must then accept an offer of cash to pay for the journey.

 

[phil8715]

I must admit that I don't actually use cash that much. I only draw cash out for example if I am going down the pub or if I am topping up my gas and electric pre-pay meter.

Sometimes I use my card in the pub if I am at a Wetherspoon pub buying myself and the Mrs a meal and a drink.

Everything else is paid on my debit card, it's not very often I have more than £10 and a bit of loose change on me.

I do have access to online banking too which helps a lot.

I personally wouldn't have a problem if I was issued with a topup card to buy small purchases just topup when you needed too, bit like the Oyster card. When I worked at Asda we were issued with a smart card you put say £5 into a machine insert your card and it loads up with credit and you would use it in the staff canteen and the amount deducted when you buy something,

There's no advantage of carrying cash round these days apart from the obvious things like getting mugged. You buy a PAYG mobile phone and it's cheaper to buy it with a debit/credit card as you need to buy a compulsary topup and if you pay by card it's normally £10 but pay by cash it's £20 topup.

99.99% of people get their wages or benefits paid into their bank account this was because of the amount of armed robberies on security vans delivering wages.

 

[IanXC]

Legal tender doesn't mean what most people think it means, i.e. Shops, guards, etc have to accept it as payment for a transaction. If you tried to pay in a shop for a can of coke with a £50 note, they could refuse to accept the note, even though it's legal tender, and ask you to put the can back as they are well within their rights to refuse the transaction.
What it does mean is that it has to be accepted as payment towards a debt already incurred. To continue the last example, buy a can of coke in a restaurant, get billed for it once you're finished, a debt situation has been created, and the note has to be accepted (although giving change could be a separate issue!).
In the train ticket circumstance, it could be argued that it is a valid use though, as a debt has already been incurred by starting travel or falling foul of penalty fare rules.

Precisely. Although my suspicion would be that a court would put the issue of legal tender above a penalty fare issued under the Railways Act, given its provisos about suitable ticket purchasing facilities being available. However I think its yet to be tested in court.

which is good, because the only legal tender in Scotland is £1 and £2 coins

£5 coins and gold soverigns are also legal tender right across the UK, you'd have to be mad to use gold soverigns though, the bullion value is massively in excess of the face values (50p, £1, £2, £5).

99.99% of people get their wages or benefits paid into their bank account this was because of the amount of armed robberies on security vans delivering wages.

I think its probably somewhat lower than that. There are still quite large numbers of particularly small retailers, restaurants and pubs who pay their employees in cash.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

I think people will voluntarily go cashless over the course of the next generation, although I doubt cash will ever completely disappear. Of course it all depends on getting the right technology in place in conjunction with the banks, too many chip and pin machines are horrendously slow. However the new ones in McDonalds (whether chip and pin or contactless) are very quick and at least as quick as a cash transaction with change given.

I'd love to see decent card techonolgy in bars and clubs. Although many clubs now accept cards they are so slow it's embarressing to hold everyone up. One thing I hate is coming home at the end of a night out with a small mountain of change as when it's dark and you've had a beer you just hand over a note each time don't you?!

 

[phil8715]

Precisely. Although my suspicion would be that a court would put the issue of legal tender above a penalty fare issued under the Railways Act, given its provisos about suitable ticket purchasing facilities being available. However I think its yet to be tested in court.



£5 coins and gold soverigns are also legal tender right across the UK, you'd have to be mad to use gold soverigns though, the bullion value is massively in excess of the face values (50p, £1, £2, £5).



I think its probably somewhat lower than that. There are still quite large numbers of particularly small retailers, restaurants and pubs who pay their employees in cash.

If employers pay their staff cash in hand then there's a likelyhood that the employees are either illegal immigrants or they are benefits cheats signing on claiming benefits and working getting paid cash in hand or the employers are doing a tax dodge and not putting it through their books.

 

[12CSVT]

He said "is prevented from having a plastic payment card" — which they aren't. The only people who are so prevented are those under 11 or those with absolutely no method of verifying their identity. Even bankrupts can open a basic bank account.

It is almost impossible to open a bank account without a passport or driving licence. What happens if you live in Bourne End, don't drive, don't travel abroad and wish to make a train journey from your local station ?

 

[island]

I work for one of the main retail banks and can confirm that there are several alternative ways of establishing identity acceptable to us besides a passport or driving licence.

I also strongly in favour of people who are genuinely unable to use ticketing facilities that are available due to those facilities not accepting all payment methods being treated on-train or at their destination as though they had no opportunity to buy before boarding.

 

[radamfi]

If you have a cashback credit card (and if not, why not?!) then there seems little point to use cash when credit cards are accepted.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

I agree. I have a cashback credit card and not only do you get a small amount of money back you have all the usual protection of a credit card, ie fraud protection and the ability to dispute transaction and claim refunds etc.

 

[Seacook]

I work for one of the main retail banks and can confirm that there are several alternative ways of establishing identity acceptable to us besides a passport or driving licence.

In theory. In practice, banks make it as difficult as possible - and in at least one case won't even tell you what they would accept.

 

[phil8715]

If you have a cashback credit card (and if not, why not?!) then there seems little point to use cash when credit cards are accepted.

Because some people don't have the credit rating to obtain any type of credit card except those from places like Provident or vanquis which have a huge apr.