Cascade from ECML to MML?

[Qwerty133]

Are you serious? I find the ride of the Mk3 coach to be one of the best on the entire network. Also the EMT sets have seats that actually fit my body size and shape (yes I know IC70s are a bone of contention bit I personally find them comfortable)

Yes, I don't like the repetitive jolting from the coaches hitting each other.

 

[route:oxford]

Yes, I don't like the repetitive jolting from the coaches hitting each other.

That is the most uncomfortable part of travelling on Mk3 stock.

Made worse on IC70 seats with no headrest!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Given that East Coast has been shortlisted to three and we're about 1 year out I would sugegst that it would probably be about 18 to 24 months prior to the end of the franchise when the first raound started.

What i meant is he said direct extension, as in like what is going on with Northern now, and that a completely new franchise is at a later date.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What i meant is he said direct extension, as in like what is going on with Northern now, and that a completely new franchise is at a later date.

The current XC franchise expires March 2016.
The new competitively-bid franchise starts in November 2019 on the DfT timetable.
DfT will negotiate a direct award franchise with Arriva for the 2016-19 gap.
The bidding for the 2019 franchise will no doubt start a year or so in advance.

 

[DarloRich]

If the MKIV/91 still have life in them (and a decent overhaul should see to that) transfer them somewhere they can be of use.

They are long distance intercity trains - put them on a long distance intercity service. As XC wont be fully wired up by them the MML or the GE seem sensible.

Although we all know they will go for scrap as this is easier than actually coming up with a strategy to enhance capacity where needed!

I would like to see some Class 225 sets come to the Blackpool North to Manchester Airport. The current setup of six car DMUs is simply not enough and can be easily full even on off-peak services.

is that serious suggestion? I cant think of many LESS suitable trains for that type of service!

 

[YorkshireBear]

The current XC franchise expires March 2016.
The new competitively-bid franchise starts in November 2019 on the DfT timetable.
DfT will negotiate a direct award franchise with Arriva for the 2016-19 gap.
The bidding for the 2019 franchise will no doubt start a year or so in advance.

That is what i got confused on. Thank you

 

[The Ham]

If part of the 222 fleet could transfer to XC that would be a huge step in the right direction for XC... It may be the new franchise that does this though as Arriva don't seem keen on splashing the cash on meeting demand.

Off topic I nkow, but there are a few problems with the 222's going to XC.

Firstly as they stand they can not run with the XC 220's and 221's and although this can be overcome, why would they bother when there are very likely to be up to 20 sets of 221's from ICWC which they can use.

Also, XC would have to wait longer to have the 222's than they would for the sets from ICWC. It could be possible to have the 221's for the Decemeber 2017 timetable change, whilst the 222's are unlikley to be free until at least the December 2019 timetable change. That's 2 years more to wait.

By the December 2019 timetable change it should be possible to run a service, probably Manchester to Southampton (with the Bournemouth leg transfering to the services from Newcastle), with EMU's. In which case the 22x's which currently are used for this service can be used to strengthen other services. Although one service doesn't sound a lot it is likely to need 9 sets, which added to any 221's from the ICWC franchise it could result in a similar number of sets to what would be possible from getting all the 222's (although less coaches). However if the EMU's were run as 7 coach sets they would have a similar level of capacity as 2x4 coach 220's running together, which would more than offset the "loss" of coaches from not getting the 222's.

Depending on what happens with electrification in CP6, XC could be in a possition where they could have a whole load more EMU services. For instance with a little under 120 miles of electrification all the south coast XC services (i.e. Bornemouth to Manchester reinstated fulley and Southampton/Reading to Newcastle) could be run by EMU's. Add in about a further 120 miles (Birmingham to Bristol/Cardiff) and Cardiff/Bristol Temple Meads to Manchester Piccadilly could be run by EMU. With both of those it would also be possibe to run Cardiff Central to Nottingham by EMU as they use lines which would have been wired up by the two lots of about 120 miles. That's then a lot of services which could be run by EMU rather than the current trains.

Yes it is likely that XC will need some form of diesel traction post 2035 as it may not be possible to wire up all their routes by them, but then the 222's would only likely gain about 5 years pver the other 22x's and maybe avaliable again by then anyway.

Also, a small changes to the sets being sent out can lead to some fairly noticable changes in the number of seats. For instance, if you change a 220 for a 221 then that is an increase of seats from 200 to 250 (one extra coach), change a 221 for a pair of 220's and that is an increase in seats from 250 to 400 (three extra coaches) and change a pair of 220's for a pair of 221's and that is an increase in seats from 400 to 500 (two extra coaches). In doing so it is possible for XC to have a noticable increase in the number of seats that they have with very few extra coaches. Therefore, we then need to look at how many extra coaches XC would be getting.

It is likely that (although XC need more coaches) an additional 143 coaches (the 222 fleet) would be a little exsessive and that up to 100 coaches (ICWC's fleet of 221's) would probably provide ample extra capcity, as at about the same time it would also likely be getting some EMU's. As the current XC fleet is made up of 250 coaches. Even just 10 extra 221's (50 coaches) would provide an extra 20% more coaches, whilst 15 extra 221's (75 coaches) would provide an extra 30% more coaches. Whilst if you added all the 222's then that would be an increase of over 55% more coaches.

Which could come along just as there start ot be EMU's coming along to (10 sets of 7 coaches would be an extra 70 coaches or an increase of 28% on the existing fleet and that leaves only one spare and a very tight turn around on the services, so there is likely to be more than 10 sets, also add to this that it might be in XC's intrest to order longer sets than this early on so as to avoid the problems they have at present), this could mean that with the 222's you'd be looking at an increase in the number of coaches of 85% above the existing fleet (or 100% increase if there were 12 sets of 9 coach ordered as the EMU's).

I would suggest that level of increase would be a little over the top and that an increase of about 60% would be a better level (15 sets of the 221's plus the EMU's), although this could be about 70% if there were 12 sets of 9 coach EMU's ordered (again bearing in mind that more EMU's could be ordered soon after to run services over any additional lines which are wired up).

Of course the new XC franchise could just ditch all their 22x's and opt for bi-modal IEP so they have a standard fleet maybe with a mix of 5 and 9 coach sets (say about 60 x 5 coach sets to replace their 220's and 170's with about 25 x 9 coach sets to replace their HST's and 221's), which means that they don't have to keep ordering lots of small orders of EMU's as more of their network becomes electrified and gives them a few spare for running some new/lengthen services.

 

[Kettledrum]

I suspect there will be little difference between the existing Meridians and the 91+Mk4s, if this does happen. I wouldn't be surprised if a vehicle is taken out of each set, if they are cascaded, as there are clearly too many seats in a full rake for MML loadings, which on some services don't fill all seats on a 4 car 222.

EMT might be able to use the 91's and the MK4's instead of the HSTs, in the way you suggest, but the there would be huge operational problems if the MK4s were used instead of the 222 Merideans - as only 6 of these units run as 7 coach formations.

The problem is that there are 17 units that run as 5 coach formations and 4 that are in 4 coach formations. These shorter units are often doubled up to form mainly 10 coach trains in peak times and only 5 coach trains off peak. This is an efficient way to run the trains as it avoids carting fresh air around and paying unnecessary track access charges. As a result loadings are usually very good in my experience

There are also only 4 platforms at St Pancras that EMT can use. Therefore in order to make best use of them, two five car trains will use the same platform which will then be split into platform 2a and 2b for example. The two 5 car units would serve different destinations and different stopping patterns on the route.

So.......you can hopefully see why EMT are unenthusiastic about the class 91's and MK4s, because this model of running simply would not work. You'd end up with fewer services, because there would be insufficient platform space at St Pancras, and you'd lose all those seats from the 10 coach trains in the peak periods, and possibly end up with more seats in the off-peak periods when you didn't need them.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Off topic I nkow, but there are a few problems with the 222's going to XC.

Very good post and goes to show how complex the current rolling stock situation is as i completely forgot the ICWC voyagers. But does that not depend on what the next ICWC franchise decides for them?

 

[BurtonM]

This may seem silly, but why would HSTs get cascaded to the MML if it was electrified?

 

[Qwerty133]

This may seem silly, but why would HSTs get cascaded to the MML if it was electrified?

they wouldn't, this thread is discussing the possibility of the mk4s being cascaded.

 

[edwin_m]

I wonder if conversion of 222s to electric might be on the cards. Something like the e-voyager plan but replacing the diesel engines instead of adding a new coach. I can see the ROSCO putting this forward as an option for an electrified MML, given the difficulties they might have finding a user for them in diesel form.

 

[The Ham]

I wonder if conversion of 222s to electric might be on the cards. Something like the e-voyager plan but replacing the diesel engines instead of adding a new coach. I can see the ROSCO putting this forward as an option for an electrified MML, given the difficulties they might have finding a user for them in diesel form.

Other than XC, other options for the 222's which hae been put forward include running the GW services to Cornwall or running services in Scotland. (Wherever they end up chances are they would stay together either in one TOC or maintained in one depot).

In which case converting them to EMU's maybe an option, however given project thor (e-voyager) required a lot more work than first thought it could also find itself being rejected. One big problem could be the time that they were out of service, so even if they were to be changed to an EMU they may be moved off the MML, converted and then used elsewhere.

 

[IKBrunel]

You'd need to replace the engines with transformer & power electronics and install a pantograph. Presumably the idea of building an extra coach with the panto is that you can engineer it with low roof from scratch so the extra capacity gives you better bcr rather completely re-engineering an existing carriage.
But with distributed traction you also need to install a 25kV cable along the train and redo the control systems.
All in all an expensive job, whether it makes better economic sense than to cascade the 222s elsewhere & buy new emus is perhaps questionable

 

[cjmillsnun]

You'd need to replace the engines with transformer & power electronics and install a pantograph. Presumably the idea of building an extra coach with the panto is that you can engineer it with low roof from scratch so the extra capacity gives you better bcr rather completely re-engineering an existing carriage.
But with distributed traction you also need to install a 25kV cable along the train and redo the control systems.
All in all an expensive job, whether it makes better economic sense than to cascade the 222s elsewhere & buy new emus is perhaps questionable

No you don't. The traction motors won't run at 25KV. They'll be much lower voltage than that.

 

[MK Tom]

I would like to see some Class 225 sets come to the Blackpool North to Manchester Airport. The current setup of six car DMUs is simply not enough and can be easily full even on off-peak services.

Class what?

 

[Class 170101]

Class what?

The Mark IV sets. Also Known as Intercity 225 Project. 225kph = 140mph (more or less)

 

[WestCountry]

The Mark IV sets. Also Known as Intercity 225 Project. 225kph = 140mph (more or less)

I think his point is that 'Class 225' is wrong; IC225 is just a brand name.
'Class Meridian' for the 222s would sound sillier, but have the same problem. :P

 

[edwin_m]

You'd need to replace the engines with transformer & power electronics and install a pantograph. Presumably the idea of building an extra coach with the panto is that you can engineer it with low roof from scratch so the extra capacity gives you better bcr rather completely re-engineering an existing carriage.
But with distributed traction you also need to install a 25kV cable along the train and redo the control systems.
All in all an expensive job, whether it makes better economic sense than to cascade the 222s elsewhere & buy new emus is perhaps questionable

The power electronics is mostly there already, since the motors are driven by an Alstom AC traction package. As suggested, these would actually be connected by a DC link although if they couldn't fit a transformer big enough to power a long unit then one option would be two transformer cars with an additional AC link, as with Pendolino.

10 cars is the maximum at St Pancras so if they are still used on the MML, any new car would have to be a replacement rather than an addition to the five-car units. This would displace 17 cars, which could be used to lengthen the 7-car units and some of the shorter ones to 10-car. However this wouldn't be enough to displace the HSTs so some extra stock would be needed, either for the long distance (225 sets?) or an outer-suburban type EMU for the Corby workings.

 

[Kettledrum]

The power electronics is mostly there already, since the motors are driven by an Alstom AC traction package. As suggested, these would actually be connected by a DC link although if they couldn't fit a transformer big enough to power a long unit then one option would be two transformer cars with an additional AC link, as with Pendolino.

10 cars is the maximum at St Pancras so if they are still used on the MML, any new car would have to be a replacement rather than an addition to the five-car units. This would displace 17 cars, which could be used to lengthen the 7-car units and some of the shorter ones to 10-car. However this wouldn't be enough to displace the HSTs so some extra stock would be needed, either for the long distance (225 sets?) or an outer-suburban type EMU for the Corby workings.

If my maths is right, there are 27 222 sets, so you'd need 27 pantograph cars and the associated conversion work to the 27 units, so it would be an interesting costing exercise to compare these costs with the cost of 27 IEP units. The current lengths of units is (6 x 7 cars), (17 x 5 cars) and (4 x 4 cars) = 42+85+16 = 143 cars. Adding 27 new pantograph cars means you would have 160 cars to split over 27 sets.

Given the platform lengths at St Pancras, you'd ideally want 5 or up to 10 car units, so you could end up with:

21 x 5 car sets = 105 cars
5 x 9 car sets = 45 cars
1 x 10 car sets = 10 cars

Total = 160 cars

I'm not sure whether all the 4 car units are fully serviceable at the moment, but either way, the 27 pantograph cars would make a really useful electric fleet that would probably be ideal for the MML - Just need Bombardier to get the technical bits and the finances right.

 

[cjmillsnun]

If my maths is right, there are 27 222 sets, so you'd need 27 pantograph cars and the associated conversion work to the 27 units, so it would be an interesting costing exercise to compare these costs with the cost of 27 IEP units. The current lengths of units is (6 x 7 cars), (17 x 5 cars) and (4 x 4 cars) = 42+85+16 = 143 cars. Adding 27 new pantograph cars means you would have 160 cars to split over 27 sets.

Given the platform lengths at St Pancras, you'd ideally want 5 or up to 10 car units, so you could end up with:

21 x 5 car sets = 105 cars
5 x 9 car sets = 45 cars
1 x 10 car sets = 10 cars

Total = 160 cars

I'm not sure whether all the 4 car units are fully serviceable at the moment, but either way, the 27 pantograph cars would make a really useful electric fleet that would probably be ideal for the MML - Just need Bombardier to get the technical bits and the finances right.

I don't think that will work. I suspect you'll need 1 pan car to go with 4 other cars.

 

[Kettledrum]

I don't think that will work. I suspect you'll need 1 pan car to go with 4 other cars.

I wondered about that too.

My alternative, if you decided you needed 2 pantograph cars in the longer units, you'd need to order a further 7 pantograph cars and you'd could configure them as:

20 x 5 car sets = 100 cars
3 x 9 car sets = 27 cars
4 x 10 car set = 40 cars

Total 167 cars

Therefore you'd need a total of 34 pantograph cars. spread over 27 units.

 

[Qwerty133]

If my maths is right, there are 27 222 sets, so you'd need 27 pantograph cars and the associated conversion work to the 27 units, so it would be an interesting costing exercise to compare these costs with the cost of 27 IEP units. The current lengths of units is (6 x 7 cars), (17 x 5 cars) and (4 x 4 cars) = 42+85+16 = 143 cars. Adding 27 new pantograph cars means you would have 160 cars to split over 27 sets.

Given the platform lengths at St Pancras, you'd ideally want 5 or up to 10 car units, so you could end up with:

21 x 5 car sets = 105 cars
5 x 9 car sets = 45 cars
1 x 10 car sets = 10 cars

Total = 160 cars

I'm not sure whether all the 4 car units are fully serviceable at the moment, but either way, the 27 pantograph cars would make a really useful electric fleet that would probably be ideal for the MML - Just need Bombardier to get the technical bits and the finances right.

Should be all operational, think 222101 is back out after it's fire last year, otherwise 3 are operational and the other one almost ready to be operational.

 

[phil281]

I don't understand why not just leave the 91's on the ECML where they are totally suitable and still have lots of life in them yet and build the IEP's to go on the MML..... or does that sound to simple?

 

[joeykins82]

The ECML has more current and potential destinations off-wire than the electrified MML will have; it makes operational sense to standardise on one train fleet with a mix of EMUs and EDMUs that can work together, especially with the acceleration improvements and subsequent capacity increase available on a line with as many choke points as the ECML.

 

[DarloRich]

The ECML has more current and potential destinations off-wire than the electrified MML will have; it makes operational sense to standardise on one train fleet with a mix of EMUs and EDMUs that can work together, especially with the acceleration improvements and subsequent capacity increase available on a line with as many choke points as the ECML.

but none of these fancy new trains will do anything anout the most difficult bottle neck on the ECML at Digswell viaduct!

 

[ash39]

Not directly no, but by being able to leave the capital as a double set and split and serve two destinations potentially means two destinations use one path. This is good for places like Lincoln, Harrogate Middlesborough but makes little difference to the core issue as you say.

I expect the cost of sympathetically widening such a structure means it'll never happen.

 

[Kettledrum]

I don't understand why not just leave the 91's on the ECML where they are totally suitable and still have lots of life in them yet and build the IEP's to go on the MML..... or does that sound to simple?

IEP units could work very well on the MML. I imagine EMT would want to run them in similar lengths to the current 222s, with many being 5 car units that could be doubled up in peak periods.

Much as I would like refurbished 91s and Mk4s, they couldn't be operated in the flexible formations needed on the MML - and that's before you start thinking of the acceleration required and the stopping patterns on the MML which are far more frequent than the ECML - all of which would make the operation of the 91s on the MML very tricky.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I don't understand why not just leave the 91's on the ECML where they are totally suitable and still have lots of life in them yet and build the IEP's to go on the MML..... or does that sound to simple?

I'm sure no-one considered that once in the years of planning...

I'm getting a bit sick of people just assuming those in management are just a bit thick and they clearly have the solution, when it's much more likely they don't know the full picture and the people with the money, resources and skills do.

 

[RichmondCommu]

IEP units could work very well on the MML. I imagine EMT would want to run them in similar lengths to the current 222s, with many being 5 car units that could be doubled up in peak periods.

Much as I would like refurbished 91s and Mk4s, they couldn't be operated in the flexible formations needed on the MML - and that's before you start thinking of the acceleration required and the stopping patterns on the MML which are far more frequent than the ECML - all of which would make the operation of the 91s on the MML very tricky.

I concur. Class 91's and Mk4's would be a disaster on the MML. And, as has been suggested, a mixture of 225's and 125 mph EMU's would be even worse. Ideally we need bi-mode units with tilt facility. Bi-mode would allow trains to be diverted for track maintenance and tilt would help with the notorious curves on the MML.