Cascade from ECML to MML?

[CallySleeper]

http://www.nottinghampost.com/Alert-old-slow-trains-lined/story-20841405-detail/story.html

AGING trains could be used on the main railway line between Nottingham and London, it is feared.

The Midland Main Line, between London, Nottingham and Sheffield, will be electrified in 2019 to speed up journey times.

However, there are fears the Government will hand over 30-year-old trains retired from the East Coast Main Line rather than up-to-date vehicles, which could make travel times even longer.

Labour's Shadow Transport Secretary, Mary Creagh, raised the issue in Parliament yesterday but received no answer from her counterpart Patrick McLoughlin – Derbyshire MP and Transport Secretary

Lilian Greenwood, MP for Nottingham South and Shadow Rail Minister, said she was "disappointed" by the lack of information from the Government and said the region "needed answers."

"If the Midland Main Line receives unaltered, old trains from the East Coast Main Line, then there is a real danger that some journey times will slow down," she said.

"It's deeply concerning that Ministers' failure to plan ahead has already resulted in some trains being transferred to other franchises, and we need to have confidence that we will get the right solution for the East Midlands."

I wasn't aware of these plans, if they're true. But more importantly, here's another rail-related article I really dislike.

Two initial points - yes, I understand why there could be a push for newer trains on the MML. But think the article (or indeed the MPs) know what they're exactly talking about.

Firstly, exactly what trains will be cascaded - HSTs, or 91+Mk4? 91+Mk4 would be more likely since the article is referring to MML electrification, but they're not 30 years old.

Also, while you could say the stock, whatever it is is "old" and "aging", I don't understand why the term "unaltered" is used. ECML stock has been recently refurbished. Yes it's old, but if it's completely suitable for the EC then there's no need to "alter" it. Remembering of course, this is the same kind of "aging" trains already currently used on the MML.

I dislike this article because it is describing our rolling stock in an inaccurate light. Yes, stock is 25+ years old, but it is not life-expired, and not in an uncomfortable or unusable condition.

Also, there is absolutely no reason why stock cascaded onto the MML, including electric stock will be slower than current trains.

I fear this is another case of potentially scaremongering with inaccurate and unnecessary claims.

 

[transmanche]

91+Mk4 would be more likely since the article is referring to MML electrification, but they're not 30 years old.

But the first ones will be by 2019 (the date the article is referring to).

Also, there is absolutely no reason why stock cascaded onto the MML, including electric stock will be slower than current trains.

In the quite lengthy discussion on this forum about the possibility of 91+Mk4s transferring to MML (or even GEML), one of the recurring themes was that the 91s didn't have the acceleration (which would require re-gearing to overcome).

 

[anthony263]

Too be honest if there is still some life left in the mark 4 carriages witha good refurbishment then so be it.

The electrified Cardiff valleys are expected to make do with 40 year old class 315's for a couple of years before getting new or younger emu's once electrification is completed.

The GW was at one point expected to get class 319's so I dont really see any problems continuing to use the mark 4's although perhaps the class 91's will have to be replaced by new locomotives

 

[thealexweb]

I would like to see some Class 225 sets come to the Blackpool North to Manchester Airport. The current setup of six car DMUs is simply not enough and can be easily full even on off-peak services.

 

[43074]

If the sets do get cascaded, I don't think the journey time increases will be much to worry about, considered the 91s have better acceleration than HSTs and there isn't much between the acceleration of a Voyager and a 91 on the ECML: for instance between York and Doncaster most Voyagers are timed for 23 minutes, and most 91s are timed to do the same. Also between Newcastle and Durham, more similar to most distances between MML stations, there are 91s are timed for 12 minutes as are most Edinburgh to Plymouth services. Based on that, I suspect there will be little difference between the existing Meridians and the 91+Mk4s, if this does happen. I wouldn't be surprised if a vehicle is taken out of each set, if they are cascaded, as there are clearly too many seats in a full rake for MML loadings, which on some services don't fill all seats on a 4 car 222.

I would think it's just scaremongering: EMT want 125mph EMUs (quite rightly) and I don't think anything has been confirmed as yet, except the possibility of 387s for Corby.

 

[tbtc]

Nothing is known at the moment. The following bits of information are not guarantees of anything:

We know that 800s and 801s will replace all of the current HSTs/ 91s/ Mk4s on the ECML
We know that a number of newly electrified lines have seen cascaded stock for the first few years (partly as a way of justifying the expense of electrification, partly to see how passenger numbers increase etc)
We know that the 91s/Mk4s probably have a few years of life in them post-2019 in mechanical terms (no guarantee that they won't be scrapped, but they aren't as knackered as some stock!)
Thirty (?) rakes ought to be enough to cover all of the current HST and 222 diagrams that EMT run, especially if the Corby services are in the hands of EMUs (387s have been mentioned, though 387s have been mentioned for a lot of things!)

...so I could see why someone would see that 91s/Mk4s would make a good fit for the MML...

...but you also have to remember that the 91s acceleration isn't great - you can get away with this on long runs from Edinburgh to London only stopping at principal stations but probably less so when you are stopping at Beeston, Long Eaton, Market Harborough etc.
91s reliability isn't amazing either, from what I remember
There's also the fact that some people would like the MML to see tilting trains and/or trains able to split to serve multiple destinations - neither of which could be done by 91s/MK4s in their current set up

(Obviously there's no guarantee that "Mk4s moving to the MML" means "91s moving to the MML")
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would think it's just scaremongering: EMT want 125mph EMUs (quite rightly)

Worth remembering that EMT only have the franchise for another three years - wires may not reach Sheffield until the 2020s - so what the current management wish may have little bearing on things.

Then again, the management of East Coast and FGW have little "say" over the 800s/801s being imposed upon their franchises in the next few years!

 

[Qwerty133]

http://www.nottinghampost.com/Alert-old-slow-trains-lined/story-20841405-detail/story.html



I wasn't aware of these plans, if they're true. But more importantly, here's another rail-related article I really dislike.

Two initial points - yes, I understand why there could be a push for newer trains on the MML. But think the article (or indeed the MPs) know what they're exactly talking about.

Firstly, exactly what trains will be cascaded - HSTs, or 91+Mk4? 91+Mk4 would be more likely since the article is referring to MML electrification, but they're not 30 years old.

Also, while you could say the stock, whatever it is is "old" and "aging", I don't understand why the term "unaltered" is used. ECML stock has been recently refurbished. Yes it's old, but if it's completely suitable for the EC then there's no need to "alter" it. Remembering of course, this is the same kind of "aging" trains already currently used on the MML.

I dislike this article because it is describing our rolling stock in an inaccurate light. Yes, stock is 25+ years old, but it is not life-expired, and not in an uncomfortable or unusable condition.

Also, there is absolutely no reason why stock cascaded onto the MML, including electric stock will be slower than current trains.

I fear this is another case of potentially scaremongering with inaccurate and unnecessary claims.

So considering this is for in a few years time the stock will be 30 years old

Too be honest if there is still some life left in the mark 4 carriages witha good refurbishment then so be it.

The electrified Cardiff valleys are expected to make do with 40 year old class 315's for a couple of years before getting new or younger emu's once electrification is completed.

The GW was at one point expected to get class 319's so I dont really see any problems continuing to use the mark 4's although perhaps the class 91's will have to be replaced by new locomotives

The main difference is that it will be impossible to sell the mk4 sets as an improvement.

If the sets do get cascaded, I don't think the journey time increases will be much to worry about, considered the 91s have better acceleration than HSTs and there isn't much between the acceleration of a Voyager and a 91 on the ECML: for instance between York and Doncaster most Voyagers are timed for 23 minutes, and most 91s are timed to do the same. Also between Newcastle and Durham, more similar to most distances between MML stations, there are 91s are timed for 12 minutes as are most Edinburgh to Plymouth services. Based on that, I suspect there will be little difference between the existing Meridians and the 91+Mk4s, if this does happen. I wouldn't be surprised if a vehicle is taken out of each set, if they are cascaded, as there are clearly too many seats in a full rake for MML loadings, which on some services don't fill all seats on a 4 car 222.

I would think it's just scaremongering: EMT want 125mph EMUs (quite rightly) and I don't think anything has been confirmed as yet, except the possibility of 387s for Corby.

Meridians are supposedly faster than 91s accelerating, which services don't fill a four car 222, other than the Corby services, maybe a few at the extreme start or end of service but in the peaks and during the day I've never been on a service that has many spare pairs of seats.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also meant to say I'd prefer to see the meridians stay than get the mk4s

 

[ianhr]

Whatever the MML gets if they are ELECTRIC trains they WILL be an improvement as far as passengers are concerned over any DMUs (which is all the 'Meridians' are). The only decent quality journeys possible at present on EMT and Cross Country are the occasional HST diagrams.

I made a return journey from Wakefield to Derby today and luckily both out and back turned out to a CC HST. How pleasant and civilised compared to the dreadful noisy smelly overcrowded Voyagers or Meridians. What a contrast, even though the HSTs are 20 years older!

 

[Qwerty133]

Whatever the MML gets if they are ELECTRIC trains they WILL be an improvement as far as passengers are concerned over any DMUs (which is all the 'Meridians' are). The only decent quality journeys possible at present on EMT and Cross Country are the occasional HST diagrams.

I made a return journey from Wakefield to Derby today and luckily both out and back turned out to a CC HST. How pleasant and civilised compared to the dreadful noisy smelly overcrowded Voyagers or Meridians. What a contrast, even though the HSTs are 20 years older!

Meridians are actually DEMUs
and have a much superior ride quality to the dreadful HSTs

 

[edwin_m]

One possible solution would be 225 sets for the Sheffield and Nottingham fasts, where acceleration isn't so critical, and new 125mph EMUs for the rest. This would use up maybe ten or twelve 225 sets.

 

[Qwerty133]

One possible solution would be 225 sets for the Sheffield and Nottingham fasts, where acceleration isn't so critical, and new 125mph EMUs for the rest. This would use up maybe ten or twelve 225 sets.

Them Sheffield fasts which are the headline times for most stations and them Nottingham "fasts" which actually more often as the Sheffield semi-fast south of leicester.

 

[ianhr]

Meridians are actually DEMUs
and have a much superior ride quality to the dreadful HSTs

Yes but they still have underfloor diesel engines roaring (or idling) away under every car, rather than a non-passenger power car at each end as in an HST or the old SR 'thumpers'!

I would concede they have rather good acceleration and the seats are an improvement on the Voyagers!

 

[Mikey C]

Yes but they still have underfloor diesel engines roaring (or idling) away under every car, rather than a non-passenger power car at each end as in an HST or the old SR 'thumpers'!

I would concede they have rather good acceleration and the seats are an improvement on the Voyagers!

I find the Meridians pretty good, the engine isn't obtrusive, and the ride was much more comfortable than the unsettled ride of the Class 91/Mk4 combo...

 

[Class 170101]

EMT's MD David Horne went public for new rather than cascaded trains about 6 months ago, however I think the Mark IVs will be what EMT end up with at least in the interim. If the 91s are re-geared for better acceleration I think the Sets will be a marked improvement on what EMT has today.

I would also suggest that the Mark IVs and 91s would be unsuitable for Anglia unless significant work is carried out on them. I think a Chiltern style Mark III refurbishment with perhaps new Locos (Class 88s perhaps) would be ideal for Anglia with their existing Mark IIIs. Class 90s released for freight duties.

 

[Haydn1971]

Out of interest, where are the current 225 depots/stables/maintenance in the London-Yorkshire leg ? How will that work with a transfer to MML ?

 

[Harbon 1]

I would love to see the 225s in stagecoach colours!

But yes the 225s to the MML seem like a logical option, which then would release HSTs for Cross Country which are quite badly needed as well as 222s for either Cross Country or other TOCs depending on where demand is needed. Northern for example

 

[The Planner]

Far from convinced XC really want the HSTs to be honest, I suspect they would rather have the 222s.

 

[transmanche]

Far from convinced XC really want the HSTs to be honest, I suspect they would rather have the 222s.

Indeed, I believe the track access charges for a 220/221/222 are a fair bit less than those for an HST.

 

[Mikey C]

Indeed, I believe the track access charges for a 220/221/222 are a fair bit less than those for an HST.

And would cross country really want more 40 year old HSTs rather than the far newer 222s with better acceleration?

 

[YorkshireBear]

If part of the 222 fleet could transfer to XC that would be a huge step in the right direction for XC... It may be the new franchise that does this though as Arriva don't seem keen on splashing the cash on meeting demand.

 

[Qwerty133]

I'd expect EMT, to block the cascade of the newer and faster 222s until after the 225s had been replaced with new 125+mph EMUs. It'd also enable services north of Corby to continue, as well as Leeds services and the York/Scarborough service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Out of interest, where are the current 225 depots/stables/maintenance in the London-Yorkshire leg ? How will that work with a transfer to MML ?

Main base for 225s is London (Bounds Green) with some also based at Leeds (Neville Hill).
The EC IEPs will be maintained at Bounds Green and a new depot at Doncaster.
Bounds Green will be all-IEP as it will be run by Hitachi, so a new depot would be needed at the London end of the MLL for any other electric stock.

EMT also uses Neville Hill for HST maintenance but electric services might not get this far (Sheffield-Leeds is not on the wiring list yet).

 

[tbtc]

If part of the 222 fleet could transfer to XC that would be a huge step in the right direction for XC... It may be the new franchise that does this though as Arriva don't seem keen on splashing the cash on meeting demand.

222s seem a reasonable fit for XC - nowhere better really.

Any decisions regarding this kind of thing will be for different franchises and different management teams to agree to though - esp with wires not reaching Sheffield until the 2020s - wouldn't worry too much about what someone in charge of a franchise that ends in the next couple of years thinks.

I'd expect EMT, to block the cascade of the newer and faster 222s until after the 225s had been replaced with new 125+mph EMUs. It'd also enable services north of Corby to continue, as well as Leeds services and the York/Scarborough service.

The Leeds services only run for stock reasons - because that's where a handful of HSTs are based - not because of any significant demand to leave Leeds at half six in the morning and return at ten at night.

The service north of Corby is only one a day, and could be replaced by getting XC to divert a 170 from Melton Mowbray to Corby. Remember that Matlock/ Burton/ Barnsley all lost their direct St Pancras services.

The York/ Scarborough service is only one a week, so hardly worth basing future fleet requirements over. Again, could be covered by XC (running one Voyager a week from Birmingham - Leicester - Sheffield - York - Scarborough?).

And, as a user of the MML, I'm not too fussed about new trains versus cascaded trains - longer trains is my main priority at the moment - rather than four/five coach long ones.

 

[YorkshireBear]

222s seem a reasonable fit for XC - nowhere better really.

Any decisions regarding this kind of thing will be for different franchises and different management teams to agree to though - esp with wires not reaching Sheffield until the 2020s - wouldn't worry too much about what someone in charge of a franchise that ends in the next couple of years thinks.

I thought XC had been extended to 2021/2 in the fiasco of the WCML franchise? Hence why i thought it may be in part their decision?

 

[edwin_m]

Out of interest, where are the current 225 depots/stables/maintenance in the London-Yorkshire leg ? How will that work with a transfer to MML ?

I believe most of the heavy work is done at Bounds Green. I don't think they'd be allowed to do a shunt at St Pancras Thameslink to get back there each night!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I thought XC had been extended to 2021/2 in the fiasco of the WCML franchise? Hence why i thought it may be in part their decision?

Direct award will be to November 2019.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Direct award will be to November 2019.

Direct award as in the extension? When is the franchise expected to be put out again?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Meridians are actually DEMUs
and have a much superior ride quality to the dreadful HSTs

Are you serious? I find the ride of the Mk3 coach to be one of the best on the entire network. Also the EMT sets have seats that actually fit my body size and shape (yes I know IC70s are a bone of contention bit I personally find them comfortable)

 

[The Ham]

Direct award as in the extension? When is the franchise expected to be put out again?

Given that East Coast has been shortlisted to three and we're about 1 year out I would sugegst that it would probably be about 18 to 24 months prior to the end of the franchise when the first raound started.

 

[Yew]

Are you serious? I find the ride of the Mk3 coach to be one of the best on the entire network. Also the EMT sets have seats that actually fit my body size and shape (yes I know IC70s are a bone of contention bit I personally find them comfortable)

For some reason the ride in a MK3 on the MML is significantly worse than an equivalent carriage on the ECML..

Personally I would welcome MK4's onto the Midland Line, Espacially if there is a fleet of new locomotives to increase acceleration.