Cascade and shortening

[DJL]

When units get cascaded and shortened in the process what happens the spare carriages?

There has been suggestion lately then when the 319s move up north they might get reduced from 4 cars to 3 so that they can be doubled and run as 6 car services.

I wonder what will happen to the spare cars (presumably trailers)

I can think of 3 possibilities:
1. Insert into other shorter units (though I can imagine there could be compatibility issues which could be hard/expensive to solve)
2. reform into loco hauled trailers
3. scrap/spares

 

[ExRes]

I'm just trying to remember the layout of a 319, if I've got it right in order to shorten one you would have to lose the toilet or the pantograph, so the toilet would have to go, yes ?

 

[northwichcat]

I'm just trying to remember the layout of a 319, if I've got it right in order to shorten one you would have to lose the toilet or the pantograph, so the toilet would have to go, yes ?

They'll be getting a new accessible retention toilet during CP6 to comply with DDA requirements. Full details on the proposed refurbishments are here: http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/brochures/319 Brochure.pdf

 

[O L Leigh]

It's not just the bogs, but the main air compressor that would be lost.

Who says they are going to be shortened anyway?

O L Leigh

 

[ExRes]

It would be very environmentally friendly to lose the pantograph coach though, think of all that electricity saved

 

[DJL]

It's not just the bogs, but the main air compressor that would be lost.

Who says they are going to be shortened anyway?

O L Leigh

It's been mentioned a fair bit on here. Doesn't make it true of course!

What about with other units? What usually happens?

 

[TEW]

Porterbrook certainly seem to accept the possibility of conversion to 3-car units. The brochure linked to above has a list of the items that would have to be moved.

 

[47802]

When units get cascaded and shortened in the process what happens the spare carriages?

There has been suggestion lately then when the 319s move up north they might get reduced from 4 cars to 3 so that they can be doubled and run as 6 car services.

I wonder what will happen to the spare cars (presumably trailers)

I can think of 3 possibilities:
1. Insert into other shorter units (though I can imagine there could be compatibility issues which could be hard/expensive to solve)
2. reform into loco hauled trailers
3. scrap/spares

Why even ask the question at the moment its no more than a vague possibility?

If there were to be any spare cars possibly they could be used to replace the 508 coach in 455 units.

 

[northwichcat]

Why even ask the question at the moment its no more than a vague possibility?

Given there are plans about how it would be achieved and Porterbrook are advertising it as a possibility it's more of a possibility than keeping the 153s in service beyond 2019. At the moment Porterbrook say refurbishing the 153s in single car formation isn't economically viable and are looking at other options, but haven't advertised any.

 

[O L Leigh]

Yes and no. Of course Porterbrook are going to plan for and advertise the possibility of a 3 car conversion, but that makes it only marginally more likely than the chances of us talking about it on here. However, it all costs money and leads to a reduction in capacity. I think it more likely that the existing formations will be retained but with some form of door de-select added together with the guards local door controls.

O L Leigh

 

[TheGrew]

How difficult would it be to retrofit adso to a 319, and how would this compare with shrinking the formation to 3 coaches?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Haydn1971]

It would be interesting to know if you could slot the 4th car into another 4 car unit to form a fleet of 3, 4 & 5 car units for flexibility

 

[O L Leigh]

How difficult would it be to retrofit adso to a 319, and how would this compare with shrinking the formation to 3 coaches?

Assuming that they need to have guards local door controls fitted (and I'm fairly sure they will), then adding door deselect would be a minimal additional cost. It just means fitting the relevant wiring and switches.

Reducing the units to 3 car formation means moving the main air compressor and main air tanks and adding a toilet where one did not exist previously, which means adding water and CET tanks. All of these also require changes to the power and other supplies to support them. Cost...? Who can say.

O L Leigh

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Assuming that they need to have guards local door controls fitted (and I'm fairly sure they will), then adding door deselect would be a minimal additional cost. It just means fitting the relevant wiring and switches....

Depends on how they choose to operate the units really, the door controls are in the cabs, but then a guard on Northern will usually operate the doors from the rear cab anyway. If they have 2x2 car currently they might operate from the third cab (leading cab of the rear unit), but I'm not sure this is a major loss. Might also be worth pointing out that the 321s and 322s have doors operated from the rear cab only, although stops on those routes do tend to be further apart.

.....Reducing the units to 3 car formation means moving the main air compressor and main air tanks and adding a toilet where one did not exist previously, which means adding water and CET tanks. All of these also require changes to the power and other supplies to support them. Cost...? Who can say.

O L Leigh

The booklet (pdf) linked to above lists 23 items that would need a new home, not including the toilet or the tanks.

Something also mentioned in that document is the recommendation to re-gear for 75mph, something that would not be advised on lines that are getting line speed enhancements (to 90mph in places).

 

[northwichcat]

Yes and no. Of course Porterbrook are going to plan for and advertise the possibility of a 3 car conversion, but that makes it only marginally more likely than the chances of us talking about it on here. However, it all costs money and leads to a reduction in capacity. I think it more likely that the existing formations will be retained but with some form of door de-select added together with the guards local door controls.

Porterbrook seem to be preparing for future franchise bidders saying the 4 car 319s will be too small for peak time loadings but 8 car formation would be overkill.

The 319s aren't the cheapest EMUs to operate so saying it's cheaper to get cascaded EMUs and to keep them in 4 car formations may not prove the cheapest option in the long term.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Something also mentioned in that document is the recommendation to re-gear for 75mph, something that would not be advised on lines that are getting line speed enhancements (to 90mph in places).

In publishing the brochures Porterbrook haven't exclusively looked at the lines 319s are likely to be cascaded to. It's been reported that the acceleration of 319s is inferior to that of 323s so if 319s were to go on somewhere like the Glossop line they might need to be converted to 3 car 75mph units, if that resulted in faster acceleration. Although, obviously an operator wouldn't want many subclasses of the same trains with different lengths, acceleration and top speeds.

 

[IanXC]

Depends on how they choose to operate the units really, the door controls are in the cabs, but then a guard on Northern will usually operate the doors from the rear cab anyway. If they have 2x2 car currently they might operate from the third cab (leading cab of the rear unit), but I'm not sure this is a major loss. Might also be worth pointing out that the 321s and 322s have doors operated from the rear cab only, although stops on those routes do tend to be further apart.

In my experience Northern guards do use intermediate door controls, where these are.available, I'd probably say on 158 operated services, about 40% of the time on stopping services (principally guards who are more active on revenue).

I'm pretty certain the 321/322 fleets do have 1 set of intermediate door controls; they are accessed with a tiny silver key!

 

[47802]

Strikes me reducing to 3 car would be a waste, if the 319's got new traction packages then presumably acceleration could be improved, how many Northern routes would need 8 cars or even 6?, and how many northern stations couldn't cope with 6 cars never mind 8, perhaps need to look at SDO or running some peak services with limited stops on the stations that have long enough platforms, or more shorter trains, or even lengthening some platforms perhaps, managing the peak timetable better etc, to base it around 4 car trains.

Ok no doubt in any major refurb a 319 may loose seats if it goes 2+2 and accommodate a bigger toilet etc, but in the current config I believe a 319/3 has only a few less standard class seats than a 2 x 3 car 185!

At the end of the day the Porterbrook are covering all options and possibilities but it doesn't actually mean any of it will happen.

 

[Rapidash]

I dearly hope the 165/6s don't get chopped up if they head to the SW. The extra capacity is long overdue.

 

[northwichcat]

In my experience Northern guards do use intermediate door controls, where these are.available, I'd probably say on 158 operated services, about 40% of the time on stopping services (principally guards who are more active on revenue).

I thought Norrthern guards have to close the doors from the rear except where special circumstances apply, such as a curved platform.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At the end of the day the Porterbrook are covering all options and possibilities but it doesn't actually mean any of it will happen.

Yes they are listing all the options but it will be a case of do it before the end of 2019 or never do it. Porterbrook are looking for a franchise bidder to say if Porterbrook do x and y to the 319s then we'll sign a lease to use 319s for the entire length of the franchise. With the 319s being 25-30 years old when they start services on their new lines an expensive refurbishment program can be justified, especially if it increases the life of the trains, wait until they're 30-35 years old and you have a very poor business case for refurbishment.

Committing to using 4 car EMUs without SDO or corridor connectors on the Bolton corridor until beyond 2020 would be a huge risk when there are currently 4 car Sprinter services with very little space for any extra passengers.

if the 319's got new traction packages then presumably acceleration could be improved

Porterbrook have said a computer simulation could be done for any route to assess what effect proposed changes would make in terms of timings.

and how many northern stations couldn't cope with 6 cars never mind 8

6 car 185s are booked to call at Manchester Oxford Rd, Deansgate, Salford Crescent, Bolton, Lostock, Horwich Parkway, Buckshaw Parkway and Chorley, so I think that just leaves Leyland and Blackrod as regular Northern calling points between Preston and Manchester on the Blackpool/Preston to Victoria/Hazel Grove services which may not be able to take 6 cars. I imagine it would only be Blackrod with a platform length issue. Leyland isn't a regular TPE calling point.

If there's platform length issues between Preston and Blackpool you could always have portion workings, detach/attach units at Preston or have a unit locked out of use between Preston and Blackpool.

in the current config I believe a 319/3 has only a few less standard class seats than a 2 x 3 car 185!

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. The 185s could be fitted with a higher density seating pattern or the 319s could be fitted with a lower density seating pattern. If you're suggesting a 4 car 319 would provide the same capacity as currently provided by a 6 car 185 then why make the point about whether platforms can take 6 cars?

A 319/3 will need to have accessibility improvements which will reduce the number of seats.

 

[IanXC]

I thought Norrthern guards have to close the doors from the rear except where special circumstances apply, such as a curved platform.

As I understand it, they just mustn't dispatch from the very front doors. However the availability of intermediate controls on almost all Northern stock results in the rear being the only option.

 

[northwichcat]

As I understand it, they just mustn't dispatch from the very front doors. However the availability of intermediate controls on almost all Northern stock results in the rear being the only option.

On the west side only the 323s are dispatched from the middle now. They used to dispatch 4 car formations which included a 142 or 150/1 from the middle (with the guard based at the front of the rear train) but now they're dispatched from the rear (with the guard based at the rear of the rear train.)

IIRC most of the ex-FNW stock have had intermediate door panels fitted.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For NW phase 2 stations (Liverpool-Wigan/Victoria), all the stations can accept 4-car 319s (and therefore 3-car).
Once you double up however, a lot of work would be needed.
For 6-car working the following platforms would need to be extended:
Wavertree, all Wigan line stations except St Helens Central, Whiston, Lea Green, Earlestown (except P1, P4), Newton le Willows.
For 8-car working, Broad Green, Roby, Huyton, Rainhill (Down) and St Helens Jn would also need to be lengthened.

For Phase 3 (Preston-Blackpool): Salwick can only take 3-car trains, Kirkham 4, Poulton 5, Layton 5/7. Also Euxton 4 and Leyland 5 on the WCML.

For Phase 4 (Victoria-Preston): Moses Gate can take 4, Kearsley, Blackrod and Chorley 5, Salford Crescent and Adlington 6, Salford Central and Horwich 7, Clifton and Lostock 8.
For Stalybridge/Wigan: Ashton is 7, Westhoughton and Hindley 5, Ince 6.
The bay platforms at Wigan NW can only take 4.

So overall, quite a nightmare to manage into a consistent set of platforms for specific sizes of train.
With the exception of Salwick, 4-car 319s would fit everywhere.
But 6-car or 8-car rakes are problematic.

Platform sizes from Quail (2005).
Some lengthening may have been done since, and some more rebuilding is in progress (eg Roby, Huyton).

 

[W230]

As people are well aware, the 319s were originally designed for DOO. I am intrigued to see what Porterbrook will be doing before they get sent oop north, though I thought the plan was to only use them a few years before replacing them with shiny new trains. Not that the north deserve shiny new trains mind...

 

[northwichcat]

For NW phase 2 stations (Liverpool-Wigan/Victoria), all the stations can accept 4-car 319s (and therefore 3-car).
Once you double up however, a lot of work would be needed.
For 6-car working the following platforms would need to be extended:
Wavertree, all Wigan line stations except St Helens Central, Whiston, Lea Green, Earlestown (except P1, P4), Newton le Willows.
For 8-car working, Broad Green, Roby, Huyton, Rainhill (Down) and St Helens Jn would also need to be lengthened.

For Phase 3 (Preston-Blackpool): Salwick can only take 3-car trains, Kirkham 4, Poulton 5, Layton 5/7. Also Euxton 4 and Leyland 5 on the WCML.

For Phase 4 (Victoria-Preston): Moses Gate can take 4, Kearsley, Blackrod and Chorley 5, Salford Crescent and Adlington 6, Salford Central and Horwich 7, Clifton and Lostock 8.
For Stalybridge/Wigan: Ashton is 7, Westhoughton and Hindley 5, Ince 6.
The bay platforms at Wigan NW can only take 4.

So overall, quite a nightmare to manage into a consistent set of platforms for specific sizes of train.
With the exception of Salwick, 4-car 319s would fit everywhere.
But 6-car or 8-car rakes are problematic.

I've highlighted the stations that EMUs would actually call at between Manchester and Blackpool in green.

If you've got a situation where 4 cars isn't enough capacity, which would be easier to deal with 6 car or 8 car? Even if you fit SDO 6 car trains would be less problematic where platform lengths are 5 car in length than 8 car trains.

Trains could be a mix of 3 and 4 cars. Northern have a mix of 2 and 3 car 144s and 158s so why could the 319s not be a mixture?

Moses Gate and Newton-le-Willows are already included in platform lengthening plans for CP5 - Moses Gate to take 4 car 156/158 and Newton-le-Willows to take 6 car 175s or 185s.

EDIT: Just thinking about this York-Blackpool services don't call at Leyland, Salwick, Kirkham or Poulton so as well as the option of 6 cars only south of Preston there's the option of moving stops from one service to another.

Also what's the situation with Chorley? Despite taking a 6 car 185 it can't take more than 5 cars?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As people are well aware, the 319s were originally designed for DOO. I am intrigued to see what Porterbrook will be doing before they get sent oop north, though I thought the plan was to only use them a few years before replacing them with shiny new trains. Not that the north deserve shiny new trains mind...

I thought the plan was to use them until they are life-expired. It was proposed Thames Valley would get 319s for a few years and then replace them with 5 car 110mph capable trains.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I've highlighted the stations that EMUs would actually call at between Manchester and Blackpool in green....

Salford Central???

....Trains could be a mix of 3 and 4 cars. Northern have a mix of 2 and 3 car 144s and 158s so why could the 319s not be a mixture?....

Northern had no choice for the 144s, they were already 2 and 3 car and shortening was not an option for the routes they operate. I believe the centre cars are very similar to the driving cars.

The eight centre cars for the 158s were transferred from Central Trains in exchange for four class 156 units. IIRC, Northern didn't really have a choice here either, although in some ways it probably suited both sides. For Northern it meant eight trains were strengthened for 'peak' times, rather than four, but in any case, the extra vehicle was very similar to the existing 158 vehicles.

The 3-car diesel units could probably run a coach short if necessary, this would not be an option for the 4-car 319s and it might not be possible to reform the 3-car units into 4-car if needed (why would a company keep excess stock if it is not regularly used anyway?).

We don't know what choice Northern have with the 319s, how they will affect service patterns, what unit availability figures they will need to reach or if they even want to run them in multiple, but I don't think it would be wise to play about with the the units too much.

 

[northwichcat]

The eight centre cars for the 158s were transferred from Central Trains in exchange for four class 156 units.

You're getting mixed up. Northern got 4 x LM 150s in lieu for the 156s. EMT got the ex-FNW 153s in lieu of the 158 centre cars.

(why would a company keep excess stock if it is not regularly used anyway?).

Which company are you talking about - Porterbrook or Northern? Maybe Porterbrook have a plan for 319 centre cars but don't want to publicise it unless an operator expresses an interest in 3 car 319.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You're getting mixed up. Northern got 4 x LM 150s in lieu for the 156s. EMT got the ex-FNW 153s in lieu of the 158 centre cars....

That was my initial recollection, but when I went searching for confirmation I didn't find that. I must have used a very unreliable website.

 

[Bevan Price]

For Phase 3 (Preston-Blackpool): Salwick can only take 3-car trains, Kirkham 4, Poulton 5, Layton 5/7. Also Euxton 4 and Leyland 5 on the WCML.

So overall, quite a nightmare to manage into a consistent set of platforms for specific sizes of train.
With the exception of Salwick, 4-car 319s would fit everywhere.
But 6-car or 8-car rakes are problematic.

Platform sizes from Quail (2005).
Some lengthening may have been done since, and some more rebuilding is in progress (eg Roby, Huyton).

Salwick is currently served only by Blackpool South trains, so the length of 319s would not be a problem. Leyland is easily capable of accepting longer trains - but they would need to refurbish the currently "unused" sections of platform at the south end.