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Carstairs Engineering Works

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Starmill

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Seriously though, for all the replies, the end result is the same, massive disruption and advice to effectively not use the railway. Fail.
The advice is to use the bus, travel via Newcastle or travel on one of the services via Dumfries though. Alternatively, if you absolutely cannot bear to do any of those things for a couple of months, you'll still have all of the normal options from Glasgow and Edinburgh Airports, National Express or car shares. These options are accessible to basically everyone. Those with licences and vehicles also have private motoring.

You do raise a sensible question about how long it would take though - no doubt the work could have been done in less time. However, the two key reasons it isn't is because a) it would cost significantly more and need a much bigger staff team to work day-and-night for however long it eventually took and b) this would cause a lot more disruption than blocking it in phases and doing prep over weekends in advance.

The only possible alternative is to build an off-line bypass, then close this area for renewal after that's open. While some might argue for that, the cost would be orders of magnitude larger. Therefore any such bypasses would really need to stand on their own two feet for the benefits they brought beyond alleviating a couple of months work of work. To connect a new line that's already been fully built you still would need to close the main route entirely for at least a couple of days.
 
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The exile

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advice to effectively not use the railway....
...is somewhat over-exaggerating what is on the Avanti website. That said - they are woefully silent in the main "blurb" on the matter of alternative routes to Scotland and far too vague on what will actually be available.
 

Bald Rick

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Well, at least I got one good reply Fat fingers, mobile, age, rushed posting and autocorrect conspired against me.

Seriously though, for all the replies, the end result is the same, massive disruption and advice to effectively not use the railway. Fail.

So what do you suggest? Genuinely interested.

In any event it’s not closed for months. It is:

two weeks with no through trains from the south via Carstairs to Glasgow or Edinburgh (but direct services available from Carlisle to Glasgow via Kilmarnock, roughly hourly)

5 weeks of services from the south to Glasgow being diverted, with a journey time extension of an hour

Around this there is also 3 months of No through trains at weekends / Bank Holidays only.

Compare to the recent works at Derby, or Nottingham, or Bristol, etc
 
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Peter0124

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If the Midcalder diversions weren't available, I suppose it would have been a good opportunity for someone like LNER to extend some services from Edinburgh to Glasgow via Shotts. But they are available so that won't happen.
 

The Planner

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Still not answering the questions posed back to you, just outright rejection of what is happening.
 

JamieL

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Still not answering the questions posed back to you, just outright rejection of what is happening.
In all honesty I am not very interested in the questions. The excuses presented amount to little more than than a council of despair and can be applied more broadly as to why the railways in this country are such a mess. The closures and line availability has been normalised to such an extent it is now regarded as quite okay if trains do not run, in some cases for weeks.
 

Bald Rick

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In all honesty I am not very interested in the questions. The excuses presented amount to little more than than a council of despair and can be applied more broadly as to why the railways in this country are such a mess. The closures and line availability has been normalised to such an extent it is now regarded as quite okay if trains do not run, in some cases for weeks.

So what’s your solution then? There’s only three answers:

1) do nothing, until the railway is unsafe, and then close it
2) replace the infrastructure like for like, with disruption
3) replace the infrastructure with something better, with disruption.

Which will you choose?
 

The Planner

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In all honesty I am not very interested in the questions. The excuses presented amount to little more than than a council of despair and can be applied more broadly as to why the railways in this country are such a mess. The closures and line availability has been normalised to such an extent it is now regarded as quite okay if trains do not run, in some cases for weeks.
So it was just a little rant without any actual substance or willingness to debate then.
 

Falcon1200

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advice to effectively not use the railway.

Who is advising people not to use the railway?

quite okay if trains do not run, in some cases for weeks.

Trains are running, as has already been explained, via two diversionary routes, into which much planning has been dedicated. I will be travelling between Glasgow and England, via the WCML, during the blockade, and am quite looking forward to an interesting route via Midcalder Jc.

Perhaps you could explain what you would do to improve the (in your opinion) mess that is the WCML?
 

smtglasgow

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Trains are running, as has already been explained, via two diversionary routes
Yes, my main takeaway is that the railway has actually come up with some innovative thinking to keep people moving. I’ll be doing a couple of work trips during the works and my first thought was at least I won’t have to catch a coach to Carlisle.

There’s no getting away from the fact that the management of the two northern WCML franchises has been pretty disastrous of late, but I can’t get angry about large-scale improvement works that have been planned to minimise passenger inconvenience.
 

JamieL

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So what’s your solution then? There’s only three answers:

1) do nothing, until the railway is unsafe, and then close it
2) replace the infrastructure like for like, with disruption
3) replace the infrastructure with something better, with disruption.

Which will you choose?
4) build new infrastructure adjacent to the old
5) increase capacity to ensure services can be maintained
6) prefabricated components for rapid construction
7) allocation of more resources to hasten the work

Etc etc

Lots of options that could be applied with a little thought beyond the stovepiped thinking of the modern railways.

There are many experts on this forum but I think there is loss if focus at times about what the railway is all about...getting from A to B.
 

Bald Rick

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build new infrastructure adjacent to the old

That is being done here where possible. Beyond what is being done would have needed compulsory purchase and a lengthy consents process - for effectively building a new line. Even then, it would need disruptive access to tie in at all three points.

increase capacity to ensure services can be maintained

That is being done, through doubling capacity Carlisle - Glasgow via Kilmarnock.

prefabricated components for rapid construction

That is being done, as far as possible. Unfortunately there is no such thing as prefab ballast.


allocation of more resources to hasten the work

That is being done. Almost the entire fleet of engineering wagons in Scotland and the north is being used on this job.


You see, people who are paid to do this do think about these things, extensively.
 

JamieL

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You see, people who are paid to do this do think about these things, extensively.
And yet they fail. This isn't a tick box exercise, it is a requirement to get the railway doing what it needs to, namely move people between A and B! So better solutions - or better application - is needed.
 

Starmill

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7) allocation of more resources to hasten the work
Are you actually in favour of this though, or just complaining?

In post 31 I pointed out that if you had more staff and a much bigger capital budget, you'd be able to compress the blockade's timescale. But that would be a lot - potentially as much as 50 - 100% more than is being spent. Are you actually in favour of giving the railway more money for big capital projects and renewals, noting this would need to come through the tax system first and foremost? Or have you supported politically the low tax parties?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

And yet they fail. This isn't a tick box exercise, it is a requirement to get the railway doing what it needs to, namely move people between A and B! So better solutions - or better application - is needed.
When the government deliberately chooses to starve public bodies of the funding they need, whether that be transport infrastructure, healthcare services, schools and other education, or indeed anything else in the public sector, poorer services are the consequence. That's the political choice that's been made over the last thirteen years in this country, on the promise of "jam tomorrow" tax cuts, at some unknown point in the future. Or do you deny that and just blame people working in Network Rail, schools and hospitals for their poor results? Where might you, and the rest of the country, find yourself without their willingness to continue working with insufficient resources to do their best possible work?
 
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JamieL

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Are you actually in favour of this though, or just complaining?

In post 31 I pointed out that if you had more staff and a much bigger capital budget, you'd be able to compress the blockade's timescale. But that would be a lot - potentially as much as 50 - 100% more than is being spent. Are you actually in favour of giving the railway more money for big capital projects and renewals, noting this would need to come through the tax system first and foremost? Or have you supported politically the low tax parties?
On the tax side I absolutely have the moral high ground, I pay Scottish Income Tax so a higher rate than England.

And yes, I am happy to pump money into the railways. I mean, if we are to reduce flying and driving, we need to make the railways better. And that doesn't mean shutting them for ages and going "oh well". Let's build a direct high speed Carstairs bypass!
 

Starmill

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On the tax side I absolutely have the moral high ground, I pay Scottish Income Tax so a higher rate than England.

And yes, I am happy to pump money into the railways. I mean, if we are to reduce flying and driving, we need to make the railways better. And that doesn't mean shutting them for ages and going "oh well". Let's build a direct high speed Carstairs bypass!
That's fair enough provided you consistently seek to support that agenda at the ballot box rather than just in online discussion. Unfortunately, most of the people involved in the work have little choice but to spend the budget they've got in the best way they can, and they can't turn up at Nicola Sturgeon or Rishi Sunak's office taking the 'moral high ground' and asking for more money.
 

The exile

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In all honesty I am not very interested in the questions. The excuses presented amount to little more than than a council of despair and can be applied more broadly as to why the railways in this country are such a mess. The closures and line availability has been normalised to such an extent it is now regarded as quite okay if trains do not run, in some cases for weeks.
Blockades are not unique to this country -in fact iirc continental experience with them was behind the move to more blockades instead of endless periods of weekend work. I think, for example, a part of the first German NBS is out of commission for much of this timetable period (or the last / next one(
 

Bald Rick

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Are there any calls planned for the diversion?

Don’t think so

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

And yet they fail. This isn't a tick box exercise, it is a requirement to get the railway doing what it needs to, namely move people between A and B! So better solutions - or better application - is needed.

What solutions or application! Please do tell us, so we can learn for next time.
 

Whistler40145

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Even though the blockage adds an hour onto service, I am happy the diversion via Midcalder exists. If it didn't then we'd be stuck with the GSW and diesels for 2 months.

I am still wondering though whether sets that start at Glasgow in the morning on the first day or two of the diversions, will purposely leave back to front. This is to prevent it being wrong formation at Euston and thus reverse formationing the next working of the train which could be a service to Manchester for example.

They can turn Polmadie sets round the Hamilton Circle if they need to be turned.

It won't matter so much for services that come in from the south, as they'll be reverse at Glasgow but back in normal formation after Carstairs. And the ones that come from the south to stable at Polmadie as the multiple reverses will cancel out. It's the ones that start at Polmadie on the first day of diversions, that could end up reverse formation at Euston.
Simpler to send them around the Cathcart Circle to reverse stock
 
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Who is advising people not to use the railway?



Trains are running, as has already been explained, via two diversionary routes, into which much planning has been dedicated. I will be travelling between Glasgow and England, via the WCML, during the blockade, and am quite looking forward to an interesting route via Midcalder Jc.

Perhaps you could explain what you would do to improve the (in your opinion) mess that is the WCML?
I am really struggling to find a service running in the first two weeks heading back from London. What date/service have you managed to get on ?

I can't stand the LNER trains because you need to go 1st class or nothing whereas Avanti West Coast have standard premium which is much more comfortable!

I know the sleeper is running as I'm booked on that down to Euston but have not been able to find anything that week in March that goes to Glasgow and is not the sleeper. Also an absolute pain in the backside to change at Edinburgh in rush hour !

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Or to or from Polmadie via Shields Jc, which used to be done, although whether Drivers retain the route knowledge, or indeed Pendolinos are authorised for the route, is another thing of course.
The people of Brickfield Crescent would not thank you for that. I used to live there and their back windows are literally a stone's throw from that line. Very infrequently used usually for freight about twice per day.
 
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30907

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I am really struggling to find a service running in the first two weeks heading back from London. What date/service have you managed to get on ?
In the first two weeks of March there is a limited Voyager shuttle to Carlisle via Dumfries connecting for The South, and these are in the NRE journey planner.
 

Falcon1200

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I am really struggling to find a service running in the first two weeks heading back from London. What date/service have you managed to get on ?

I am travelling during Phase 2 of the works, when there are through trains using the diversionary route via Midcalder Jc, but as @30907 says there is a service during Phase 1, albeit involving a change at Carlisle. For example, on Wednesday 8th March:
Euston dep 0930
Carlisle arr 1247, dep 1259
Glasgow C arr 1535

However, many of the morning services between Glasgow and Carlisle are provided by buses, rather than trains via Kilmarnock and Dumfries.

The people of Brickfield Crescent would not thank you for that. I used to live there and their back windows are literally a stone's throw from that line. Very infrequently used usually for freight about twice per day.

Not sure the odd (electric) Pendolino would be a major disturbance; In the old days the very heavy, double-headed, diesel hauled, iron ore and coal trains between Hunterston and Ravenscraig went this way!
 
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I am travelling during Phase 2 of the works, when there are through trains using the diversionary route via Midcalder Jc, but as @30907 says there is a service during Phase 1, albeit involving a change at Carlisle. For example, on Wednesday 8th March:
Euston dep 0930
Carlisle arr 1247, dep 1259
Glasgow C arr 1535
Interestingly this was the exact day I was looking for. Have booked on this service. Whilst the east coast journey is great and scenic and all, I really cannot be bothered changing at Waverly during peak rush hour ! Only to have a magical mystery tour back to Hamilton!!

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Are LNER not allowing any Anglo Scottish bookings in Standard class?

P.S. Welcome to the forum.
Ha ! Indeed they do, but I have terrible cramp sitting in those squashed up seats. So I prefer to try and get a roomier seat where possible! West coast service let's you upgrade to standard premium for £25 which in my opinion is worth it. Especially if you are on the train for 5 hours !
 

Taunton

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I am sure in passenger you are correct, but it really just shows the contempt the north is treated with IMHO. It is a major railway artery out of Scotland's biggest city and there is this lazy fare attitude of its fine to close or disrupt it for months. Totally unacceptable.
I suspect these works are fully planned in Scotland, and thus the contempt, if any, would be for the country that lies to the south ...
 

JamieL

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I suspect these works are fully planned in Scotland, and thus the contempt, if any, would be for the country that lies to the south ...
Network Rail HQ address is:
Network Rail
One Eversholt Street
London
NW1 2DN
 
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