Carriage lighting

[mike57]

When were carriage lights left permanently on? Growing up i seem to remember that they would only be switched on for tunnels or as it got dark.

Reason it dropped into my mind is that some RER A (and may be other) trains in Paris seem to turn lights off when not in tunnels when light is good.

I personally prefer it as a lot of modern lighting is very harsh.

 

[Rescars]

Does this mark the changeover from the dynamo/battery systems on individual Mark 1 carriages to the train supply being fed from the loco.

Going back, presumably the opportunity to switch lights on and off was a novelty when electric lighting was fitted. The same flexibility would have been tricky to achieve with gas, and even less so with oil pot lamps dropped through carriage roofs.

 

[StephenHunter]

Does this mark the changeover from the dynamo/battery systems on individual Mark 1 carriages to the train supply being fed from the loco.

Going back, presumably the opportunity to switch lights on and off was a novelty when electric lighting was fitted. The same flexibility would have been tricky to achieve with gas, and even less so with oil pot lamps dropped through carriage roofs.

You could cover the light from an oil lamp with a movable shade for the lantern - or just turn the gas down to the bare minimum.

This is an antique Victorian bullseye lantern. Otherwise known as a dark lantern. This design was created in the early/mid 1800s for police to be able to have a portable lightsource. It was more convenient than carrying a giant lighted torch, in that the beam was focused and the lantern can be turned to "shut off" the light without actually having to extinguish the flame and later re-light it. This is really cool. The oil burner is non-functional after all this time and is likely from a different dark lantern BUT at least it contains one which makes for easier explanations. These were also used by the Railway and who knows who else. This design was used all over the world, not just Britain.

 

[Acathater]

Mk1 coaches had lights on all the time. The compartments had switches to set high/low over the doors, but no off switch. Open coaches were permanently on

 

[Rescars]

Mk1 coaches had lights on all the time. The compartments had switches to set high/low over the doors, but no off switch. Open coaches were permanently on

IIRC there was a switch in the end vestibule which turned all the lights in the carriage on or off. A conventional square carriage key was needed to operate it.

On the matter of carriage keys, my boss kept an old LMS one in his desk. One end of the T-bar was a special gas key for operating carriage lighting.

 

[Dstock7080]

On the Underground the end came with the implementation of OPO/OMO One Person Operation, previously Guards were able to switch lights off in open sections and switch them on for long tunnels. With OPO it became mandatory for lights to be on while the train was in passenger service.

 

[Taunton]

The old Wirral Electric Class 503 certainly switched on/off between tunnel and open sections, controlled by the guard and always done at the same point near Birkenhead North, which led to the contradictory aspect that stock running off an electric supply was able to make this minor electricity saving, whereas Mk1 main line stock on adjacent lines, run off batteries, had to keep it on all the time.

A magazine article in the 1960s on a German S-Bahn (I think Hamburg) stated that lights were turned on/off for open sections by having the 3rd rail set at different heights, lower on the open sections, and a mechanical light switch on the collector shoes so when they dropped down the lights went off!

 

[edwin_m]

IIRC there was a switch in the end vestibule which turned all the lights in the carriage on or off. A conventional square carriage key was needed to operate it.

On the matter of carriage keys, my boss kept an old LMS one in his desk. One end of the T-bar was a special gas key for operating carriage lighting.

There were separate buttons for on and off, but these only controlled the coach they were operated in. The key switch controlled the whole train. Mk1and all mk2 had these on a cast metal panel and Mk3 had a steel plate.

 

[Rescars]

There were separate buttons for on and off, but these only controlled the coach they were operated in. The key switch controlled the whole train. Mk1and all mk2 had these on a cast metal panel and Mk3 had a steel plate.

Of course. I didn't RC!! You are quite right. It's been a while since I needed to know which button to press!

 

[Paul AC]

There were separate buttons for on and off, but these only controlled the coach they were operated in. The key switch controlled the whole train. Mk1and all mk2 had these on a cast metal panel and Mk3 had a steel plate.

Indeed. The whole-train lighting is controlled via the RCH (Railway Clearing House) jumpers fitted to Mk.1/2/3 coaches. It's a three-pin circuit: energise one briefly at +24V to 'set' the train lights; energise another briefly at +24V to 'trip' the train lights; with a common negative via the third wire. The brief energisation of the relevant wire is done via the rotation of the key switch. I think I have that right; I'm not a "carriage technician"....

The set/trip lines through the carriages and RCH jumpers also carry Public Address, Driver/Guard Communications and the TDM (Time Division Multiplex **) remote control functions, each modulated onto their own different carrier frequency, which mostly avoids cross-contamination of the functions.

** applies to both the TDM used on the Edinburgh - Glasgow 47/7 push-pull train sets and the much more sophisticated TDM used for AC loco / DVT remote control; again they used different carrier frequencies.

 

[Ashley Hill]

The rule book only required the lights to be on during the passage through long tunnels or the hours of darkness.
Nowadays lights are left on permanently, on IETs for example there is not even an on/off button for train lights!

 

[Trackman]

There were separate buttons for on and off, but these only controlled the coach they were operated in. The key switch controlled the whole train. Mk1and all mk2 had these on a cast metal panel and Mk3 had a steel plate.

I think I know what you are talking about, am I correct in saying, basically an off an switch, but with no buttons? ( but has a T-Key hole)

 

[StephenHunter]

You didn't want the passengers to operate the lights on their own; you just made them unscrew the lightbulb.

 

[Rescars]

I think the lights in a 4-SUB were directly connected to the traction supply. They certainly went out when coasting over a dead section. I assume there was a switch to turn the lights on and off, but maybe there wasn't.

 

[StephenHunter]

I think the lights in a 4-SUB were directly connected to the traction supply. They certainly went out when coasting over a dead section. I assume there was a switch to turn the lights on and off, but maybe there wasn't.

The C and D stock on the Underground would have their lights flicker in certain sections too.

 

[edwin_m]

I think I know what you are talking about, am I correct in saying, basically an off a switch, but with no buttons? ( but has a T-Key hole)

There was a keyhole but also two buttons.

 

[Beebman]

I've found a picture of a Mark 1 coach vestibule lighting switch:

Source: https://gwsrcarriageandwagon.blogspot.com/2022/05/evolution-survey-of-our-mk-1-coach.html

 

[Tetragon213]

Iirc, in heritage the lights are only used when going into tunnels, or when it gets genuinely dark; usually, it's to protect the batteries. I believe some coaches also have manual switches on them which are completely independent of the guard's actions, e.g. the buffet coach lighting.

I have definitely done more than a few runs where the batteries gave up at the end of a winter's night!

 

[Dstock7080]

The C and D stock on the Underground would have their lights flicker in certain sections too.

C Stock would be the whole two-car unit, D Stock would be one side of the three-car unit; when supply lost to the motor generator

 

[Rescars]

Iirc, in heritage the lights are only used when going into tunnels, or when it gets genuinely dark; usually, it's to protect the batteries. I believe some coaches also have manual switches on them which are completely independent of the guard's actions, e.g. the buffet coach lighting.

Struggling to recall, but I think in a RBK or an RKB there were separate switches for the buffet, pantry, kitchen and staff compartment lights which were independent of the train lighting in the public areas. If you're slicing onions or tomatoes (for instance) you need to be able to see what you're doing!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 21:55 ==

There was, of course, compartment by compartment control over the lighting in sleeping cars. However things could go awry. I recall being woken on one trip by the conductor shining a Bardic lamp at me. It was barely dawn outside and the dynamo belt had fallen off en route.

 

[Taunton]

You didn't want the passengers to operate the lights on their own

Sometimes you did. I recall a Mk2 on the WCML where the lights went off whenever a PA announcement was made, due to some multiplex wiring fault, and I was eventually going and pressing the On button in the vestibule after each one. Fortunately not many in those times, only guard live announcements.