...a judge might decide that it cannot be accepted as evidence.
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Carnet problem - solicitor recommendation and any other comments?
- Thread starter cantabrigian
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...a judge might decide that it cannot be accepted as evidence.
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Indeed. Though, at risk of repeating myself, our goal at the moment is avoiding the need to test this.
You can't use a gateline validator in Cambridge. They are programmed not to accept Carnet tickets so you have to go through the manned gate where they check you have actually dated it.
Which means it's quite easy to do a 'safe' alteration and know the ticket won't be marked as used.
The quicker these things are changed to a more secure (for both parties) the better.
I wouldn't say easy! The big problem with Carnet tickets is its almost impossible with most biros to actually write in the boxes provided. The best you get most of the time is indented ticket and no ink. Which can result in people going over and over it trying to get it marked. I have abandoned trying to date them in the boxes and just write the date across the face of the ticket where pens do work. Most staff accept it but I have had one of two complain. I simply give them my pen and tell them to try filling the boxes in which usually persuades them.
If I were the OP I would ask the TOC to demonstrate that the boxes can be written in with a range of pens without having to go over it multiple times. And ditto a judge if it ever got to that stage.
But I would be disappointed to lose Carnets because on the Cambridge to KGX line they offer substantial discounts on peak and off-peak fares - more than you get with an off-peak only railcard.
I don't mean getting rid of them, rather put them on a smartcard (The Key) and that should be it. No tap in to activate; busted.
If you read my many posts, you'll know that I've said the big issue is writing in the date genuinely - but while some people will ruin a ticket with a biro, or get accused of tampering, others will use a permanent marker and be able to make an 11 into a 17 or whatever.
They are very flawed, especially given the date needing to be written on the orange part of the ticket. It's the shiny bit that is hardest to write on.
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If you read my many posts, you'll know that I've said the big issue is writing in the date genuinely - but while some people will ruin a ticket with a biro, or get accused of tampering, others will use a permanent marker and be able to make an 11 into a 17 or whatever.
They are very flawed, especially given the date needing to be written on the orange part of the ticket. It's the shiny bit that is hardest to write on.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
I'm quite sure that the TOC will just show that there's a couple of commonly available pens that do work and consider their job done. Those guards who do use pens don't seem to have much trouble getting them to write.
FCC for a while issued free pens (I don't know if GTR does, and I've not seen posters for ages). It sort of demonstrated just how bad the carnet system was, that you couldn't just use any ordinary pen.
I used to write the date on the back too, and if possible got someone at the gate to timestamp it with a gripper (assuming they had it to hand).
I always felt like I was somehow going to wind up in trouble, and wrote off more than one ticket because one I damaged with a pen, and it looked dodgy. The second I actually wrote the wrong date and couldn't correct it.
Two tickets binned actually wipes out a fair saving, so I just called it a day on them and hoped we'd have had a better system in operation by now. The fact I don't see advertising for carnets suggests GTR isn't promoting them actively any more.
I used to write the date on the back too, and if possible got someone at the gate to timestamp it with a gripper (assuming they had it to hand).
I always felt like I was somehow going to wind up in trouble, and wrote off more than one ticket because one I damaged with a pen, and it looked dodgy. The second I actually wrote the wrong date and couldn't correct it.
Two tickets binned actually wipes out a fair saving, so I just called it a day on them and hoped we'd have had a better system in operation by now. The fact I don't see advertising for carnets suggests GTR isn't promoting them actively any more.
I suspect that they really would like them to go away - both because they are hassle to police and administer, and because they're cheaper than the Anytime tickets that infrequent commuters would be likely to buy instead.
I don't think I've ever seen them advertised anywhere (not at stations anyway).
The first I heard of them, were on this forum. I don't think FCC advertised them either, did they?
Do many commuters, who travel 3-4 days a week at peak times, at GTR stations (where available), know about them?
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Yes, FCC did advertise them - at a couple of stations at least.. and later updated posters to say you'd get a free pen (sharpie), presumably realising the issues that people had with them.
I vaguely recall they may have done a leaflet in the racks too, but may be mistaken.
GTR has to the best of my knowledge never promoted them in any way, although they've kept stickers on TVMs that can issue them.
I vaguely recall they may have done a leaflet in the racks too, but may be mistaken.
GTR has to the best of my knowledge never promoted them in any way, although they've kept stickers on TVMs that can issue them.
I can't remember which of the two types of machine (software wise) do them. Or maybe they both do. I always bought mine from a ticket office.
*sigh* And therein lies the problem.
You should be able to use one of these to fill it in without making a mess of it. I don't have one to hand to try it out, but I'll see if I can get one and provide a report.
Strikes me as an easily solvable problem the TOCs simply don't want to solve but want to go away.
10 years ago I lived in a town that used magnetic strip cards as bus tickets, with a 10 use option being one of the available cards. Put the card in the validator, it updates the card with the use and prints the date/time in one of the 10 spaces for journeys, job done.
No reason such machines couldn't either be on board, or at the station. No argument over whether you validated it or not - the date/time is there and if you want to argue that its out of ink or misprinted, read it off the card.
But given how extensively these tickets are advertised (ie- not), it appears there's been more a hope they'd simply go away.
10 years ago I lived in a town that used magnetic strip cards as bus tickets, with a 10 use option being one of the available cards. Put the card in the validator, it updates the card with the use and prints the date/time in one of the 10 spaces for journeys, job done.
No reason such machines couldn't either be on board, or at the station. No argument over whether you validated it or not - the date/time is there and if you want to argue that its out of ink or misprinted, read it off the card.
But given how extensively these tickets are advertised (ie- not), it appears there's been more a hope they'd simply go away.
And therein lies the real problem. If the system only works by knowing a specific pen that works and requiring your customers to both know that and order themselves one then its pretty borked. Bit like having a TVM that accepts pound coins but only ones minted in 2010.
The situation is unlikely to change but then the TOCs should recognise the problem and not penalise people like the OP without first being pretty sure it was an alteration and not an unsuccessful attempt to date the carnet. Either that or have a supply of sharpies available at all the gates.
cantabrigian
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Thanks to everyone for these comments
TonyR - not being able to write on the ticket properly with a ballpoint pen and having to have a few goes is indeed what happened to me. My carnet looked about as good as the one you posted too.
Amateur - I also bought mine in person but I don't see why you couldn't buy them from a machine; it's just a bunch of fairly ordinary looking tickets. You also say, do many 3/4 day per week commuters know about them? I don't know for sure about that but at 3-4 days per week on the route I use, anyway you'd go for a season ticket. I'm only using carnets because I became a much more occasional commuter recently, and I wasn't very conscious of them when I was a more regular one, in fact I was slightly surprised when I found they were available for a journey of the length I make, but in the end I don't think I'm unusual so why not? They are not that much cheaper than just buying standard tickets but they are convenient because you don't have to buy a ticket each time you go. That's quite valuable in its own right for me.
So it's good in theory but not so good in practice. Once all this is done, if it doesn't just put me off them completely, I'll probably get better at using them but the ironic thing is I recognised that there was a risk of forgetting to fill them in and set up a very careful procedure to make sure I did that and never retained a ticket I'd used but still I get in a mess only a few weeks into my new travel pattern. I understand where the TOC is coming from, they find something prima facie unusual and have to investigate, but even so it's not very enjoyable being on the receiving end.
It would be easy for the TOCs to criticise me and other people who get this seemingly trivial operation of writing a date on piece of paper wrong but, you know, in the real world a lot of people are moving around and a few mistakes will get made and increasing that number of mistakes by giving those people tickets that really aren't that easy to fill in is not ideal. Making carnets more like oyster cards instead so that you touch in and out and don't have to mess around with pens and shiny tickets and would be a nice thought but I guess it depends on all the technology being available in all the right places. I wonder if abolishing them might be the better way too.
Still thinking about exactly what to say in reply to my letter meantime, though.
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And indeed I used such a strip card in another country just this morning! Dare I say, it worked pretty well ... although I sense that in that place there is also a drift away from the strip cards and towards tickets that don't need validation so perhaps they are struggling with people forgetting versus "forgetting" too.
TonyR - not being able to write on the ticket properly with a ballpoint pen and having to have a few goes is indeed what happened to me. My carnet looked about as good as the one you posted too.
Amateur - I also bought mine in person but I don't see why you couldn't buy them from a machine; it's just a bunch of fairly ordinary looking tickets. You also say, do many 3/4 day per week commuters know about them? I don't know for sure about that but at 3-4 days per week on the route I use, anyway you'd go for a season ticket. I'm only using carnets because I became a much more occasional commuter recently, and I wasn't very conscious of them when I was a more regular one, in fact I was slightly surprised when I found they were available for a journey of the length I make, but in the end I don't think I'm unusual so why not? They are not that much cheaper than just buying standard tickets but they are convenient because you don't have to buy a ticket each time you go. That's quite valuable in its own right for me.
So it's good in theory but not so good in practice. Once all this is done, if it doesn't just put me off them completely, I'll probably get better at using them but the ironic thing is I recognised that there was a risk of forgetting to fill them in and set up a very careful procedure to make sure I did that and never retained a ticket I'd used but still I get in a mess only a few weeks into my new travel pattern. I understand where the TOC is coming from, they find something prima facie unusual and have to investigate, but even so it's not very enjoyable being on the receiving end.
It would be easy for the TOCs to criticise me and other people who get this seemingly trivial operation of writing a date on piece of paper wrong but, you know, in the real world a lot of people are moving around and a few mistakes will get made and increasing that number of mistakes by giving those people tickets that really aren't that easy to fill in is not ideal. Making carnets more like oyster cards instead so that you touch in and out and don't have to mess around with pens and shiny tickets and would be a nice thought but I guess it depends on all the technology being available in all the right places. I wonder if abolishing them might be the better way too.
Still thinking about exactly what to say in reply to my letter meantime, though.
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And indeed I used such a strip card in another country just this morning! Dare I say, it worked pretty well ... although I sense that in that place there is also a drift away from the strip cards and towards tickets that don't need validation so perhaps they are struggling with people forgetting versus "forgetting" too.
In a sense, they do want it to go away. Smart cards are the future, and have been for several years. As they see it, there isn't much point in investing in paper ticket formats when the machines will be ripped out 'next June'.
If you want to use my ticket as an example in making your case PM me.
Me too, especially for saving time at times when there are large queues at that TVMs and ticket office.
Technology is not the problem. Other countries have as you say had automatically dated carnet tickets for years. But I suspect when you can make a lot of money out of passenger mistakes why would you want to make it easy? But maybe I'm just being cynical [emoji849]
To be fair, a lot of it comes down to the ticket stock being used. When it was less shiny there were fewer problems.
Still archaic to have to do it that way but a lot of the technology seems designed to trap passengers. So for example ticket gates will not reject tickets that have already been used (I've tested it), route restrictions on TVMs are frequently unclear/wrong and carnet tickets can only be dated with a special order pen. If you wanted to design a system to maximise the fines of ordinary, as opposed to fare evading, passengers, they've pretty much done it.
Why should they? There are plenty of valid reasons why you might want to pass through a barrier more than once and there's only so many bits available on the mag stripe.
More often than not TVMs sell more expensive and less limited tickets than they need to, but that isn't going to trap anyone.
You don't need a special order pen - there are plenty that will work, especially if you date it well before you intend to use it and give the ink a chance to dry. You just need a fine tipped permanent marker.
If that were the rationale then they wouldn't retain the tickets in the gate some of the time in case someone wanted to pass through the barrier with it more than once.
I'm not talking about more expensive tickets. I am talking about wrong validity information on the screen. I had a case where they tried to issue a PFN because my ticket wasn't valid for the route I was using. I went back later in the day and photographed the TVM validity screen for that ticket that said it was. They altered the screens a few days later and tried to claim they had always been like that but fortunately I had my time and date stamped photo to prove they were lying. It took Passenger Focus' intervention before they backed down.
In that case they should issue proper instructions on what pens will work. The vast majority of ball point pens I have used (I don't carry felt tips because they have a habit of leaking in your pocket) won't write in the red boxes. In any case permanent inks are easily removed with a bit of alcohol or acetone so if they were really interested in stopping fraudulent use..........
As I said all these things are easily fixed by the TOCs but they have no interest in doing so and quite an incentive not to.
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I doubt that many TOCs actually make that much money from prosecuting innocent passengers as it's a reasonably expensive undertaking. I suspect that it's more likely that most TOCs want to move to smartcard ticketing because it will be cheaper overall solution for things like carnet tickets.
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Not that easily from paper.
Not when it comes to actual prosecutions, but out of court settlements seem quite an easy way to a fast buck.
Yes but very easy from the shiny red band at the top of a ticket (or in fact the any of the front face of the ticket; back face is a different matter) which is all that matters. Try it.
Just did a little experiment. Pulled four tickets out of the pile of used tickets. Grabbed three free ballpoint pens that I've acquired plus a Sharpie.
The fanfold tickets were easier to make a mark on with the ballpoint, but none of them failed to make a legible mark. Could have needed go over it in a few places though. Sharpie was legible and didn't smear at all on any of the four tickets.
Got some methylated spirits and a cloth. The ink came off in all cases, but with the majority of the ballpoint marks the ink-laden spirits soaked into the paper and left clearly visible marks.
The Sharpie was a mixed bag - of four marks in two cases removing the Sharpie ink removed the orange/green print from the ticket leaving a white outline of where the writing used to be. With one of them the only way to remove the Sharpie was to use enough force that the printed text was removed as well. Only one of the four produced a result that would have passed anything but a very casual inspection.
So, in conclusion, yes you can remove permanent ink from a ticket with a solvent, but it doesn't appear you'd have a very high success rate.
That's the thing. So many situations are where a TOC merely needs to threaten court action but in all likelihood would never take it that far.
Do we know of cases where someone has actually invited the TOC to go all the way?
I did it when I got an unjust, unenforceable, parking ticket on private land. I know around 60% of people apparently pay these without fuss, but I said I wouldn't and said they'd have to take me to court.
They didn't, as their actual loss was zero (you could park free for one hour and there was no rule to say you couldn't just get another free ticket, meaning the cost of a space was technically zero - plus the car park was near empty).
Not that I'd recommend someone do this for a railway issue, but there must be some people who would say 'prove it in court' over matters like this, knowing the way the ticket was taken and stored would make it effectively inadmissible.
Possibly, but there were c 1.5 billion train journeys last year, I'm willing to bet that more than 99.9% of them were completed without a prosecution or threat thereof.
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