Carmarthen to Aberystwyth Reopening?

[ChiefPlanner]

While it's true that mineral extraction was the reason for many lines to built in the areas where there were a lot of deposits waiting to be mined or quarried and taken down to the sea for onward transportation, it's correct to say that in rural areas the desire was to join the railway age.

However, I'd say that the transport of produce to markets was still a driving force behind the desire to have a railway, rather than passenger traffic. Meat, milk and vegetables could be transported in a more efficient manner by rail to big cities and towns, as Michael Portillo's programmes have stated on many occasions. It was also useful for inwards goods traffic, as well, naturally, but the rise of road traffic saw a lot of goods move to road haulage.

It was this loss of freight traffic on the Carmarthen to Aberystwtyh route that really killed it. The line to Newcastle Emlyn remained open until 1973 for milk traffic, if my memory serves.

Very much so - as feeders of basics in of coal for local use , fertiliser , bulk foods like flour - (often killing coastal shipping in the process !) - and as you mention meat (Welsh mutton to Smithfield Market being a regular and valued Cambrian traffic) , fish from Neyland and Milford , and of course bulk milk. Most of this does not move very far now - there are no prospects of liquid milk from West Wales to London ever again. I know , I managed the MMB contract for BR wayback - and they had no interest in long haul milk flows. The tankers were duly scrapped....

 

[Gareth Marston]

A better question might be how many railways would have been built if the locals had been able to foresee the (lack of) return on their investments! This one probably applies across much of the rest of the UK too.

The prospectus's clearly sold the benefits to the wider economy of the area rather than as a money making scheme in its own right the shareholders were often small business owners/ farmers who profited in a different way to the annual dividend.

 

[Phil from Mon]

The prospectus's clearly sold the benefits to the wider economy of the area rather than as a money making scheme in its own right the shareholders were often small business owners/ farmers who profited in a different way to the annual dividend.

Interesting parallel with the shipping industry in 19th century Wales, most of the ships were owned by consortia of local people - quarries, farmers, small businesses, preachers, etc. Obviously some were in it to make a profit, but a great many saw it as a get their produce to the wider world, in some cases very far indeed, and control the import of such things as guano, lime etc. Fascinating books on this buy the late Aled Eames if anyone comes across them.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Regardless of that no one is going to accept the capital cost hit that this would be. Most if not all reopenings in Wales have been on tracks that have already been there, Ebbw Vale was 30 odd million and the VoG 20 odd million. They were peanuts in comparison to this. Crumlin viaduct would probably be cheaper!

And that's precisely what is wrong with the country today, it thinks more of money than it does its people & the social requirements of those who are fortunate/unfortunate (depending on your PoV) to living in the countryside.

Aren't they entitled to public transport as much as those who're spoilt rotten in the towns & cities who have it all, almost 24x7? Whilst I'm not suggesting that all lines should run 24x7, I am saying that those of us who live in the sticks should be able to get on a train and/or bus when we need to.

We've seen that a lot of road traffic is generated by those areas which used to have a railway & no longer do, because there's no viable option other than to use a car & that's because of some of the distances involved and you can't exactly use a bicycle for your shopping either before someone says about it.

Also in bad weather sometimes it's been the railway that's been the lifeline to areas which are cut off by road. IIRC the WSR was in that position in the late 70's/early 80's when snow cut off West Somerset from the outside world and the railway became the way in & out of the area.

 

[HowardGWR]

When visiting West Wales this year, i had the distinct impression that many were living there by choice and running lifestyle business such as B and B, just like in my own South West. Hardly anyone who lives in the countryside now *needs* to live there. Even if you are a contract farm worker, it is more sustainable for your family to live in the market towns where they can walk to shops and school and the farm worker spouse just drives to the various places of employment, which are spread far and wide.

The only lines that could survive in this modern rural environment are those like the volunteer Gwili and they are doing a fine job and will eventually create jobs.

 

[D1009]

The line to Newcastle Emlyn remained open until 1973 for milk traffic, if my memory serves.

I never travelled throughout on the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line, but remember going on a DMU rail tour in the early seventies which visited what was left of the network north of Carmarthen. We went to Newcastle Emlyn and to the creameries at Felin Fach on the Aberaeron line, and Pont Llanio on the Aberystwyth line.

 

[Francis]

It is actually quicker and more fuel efficient to follow the A470 through Rhayader, Llanidloes and Llandinam to Newtown, then taking the route through Llan'dod and Crossgates and over the mountain.

I've measured and timed both!
Useful being a local.

Thanks. Useful to know. Next time I'm heading down that way I'll take the Rhayader route. The A483 is frustrating cos it seems to take ages to get down to Builth Wells.

 

[Llanigraham]

Thanks. Useful to know. Next time I'm heading down that way I'll take the Rhayader route. The A483 is frustrating cos it seems to take ages to get down to Builth Wells.

No problem.
You can also spend the time looking out for the remains of the line south from Moat Lane, and a small bit of the Manchester and Milford.
Now all you need to do is pull off the Llani by-pass and stop in town for a coffee.

 

[Gareth Marston]

No problem.
You can also spend the time looking out for the remains of the line south from Moat Lane, and a small bit of the Manchester and Milford.
Now all you need to do is pull off the Llani by-pass and stop in town for a coffee.

Ah the perennial complaint about the lack of visitors stopping since the bypass was built.

 

[Llanigraham]

Ah the perennial complaint about the lack of visitors stopping since the bypass was built.

Actually Gareth it isn't too bad in Llani, as we have managed to publicise just how good we are, and what a good choice of shops, cafes and pubs we have, so we get quite a lot of visitors.

 

[krus_aragon]

Once you have doffed your hat to the David Davies monument in Llandinam ...

Ah, so I'm not the only one who does this! (Likewise to the twin in Barry, of course.)
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Actually Gareth it isn't too bad in Llani, as we have managed to publicise just how good we are, and what a good choice of shops, cafes and pubs we have, so we get quite a lot of visitors.

The overbridges are also a prime spot for hanging banners for shows and fairs, from what I recall.
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Below Builth the formation for a long distance has been used as the road on the other side of the Wye that parallels the A470, passed Erwood Station.

Which makes for a very pleasant cycle journey to Hay on Wye.

 

[pablo]

Yesterday, I traced this line on Streetmap. Has there ever been a more sinuous route in the British Isles? No chance. I think the Gwili Railway has the best idea.
More suited to a bush 'plane service with landing grounds along the route. But that isn't legal in the Land of Uk where we have to have twin-engined aeroplanes and licensed airfields for a public service. Typical gold-plating.

 

[paul1609]

My view is that road schemes tend to take a lot of custom away from towns that are bypassed en route. It's much easier to stay on the main road until your ultimate destination and enjoy the delights of little chef and service stations instead.



.

I'd say that was true for transport schemes generally. An awful lot of office jobs have disappeared from Ashford Kent since HS1 opened and the town centre is just plain dying.
House prices have shot up as the town became a dormitory town for docklands and central london but generally its killed the local economy.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

When visiting West Wales this year, i had the distinct impression that many were living there by choice and running lifestyle business such as B and B, just like in my own South West. Hardly anyone who lives in the countryside now *needs* to live there. Even if you are a contract farm worker, it is more sustainable for your family to live in the market towns where they can walk to shops and school and the farm worker spouse just drives to the various places of employment, which are spread far and wide.

The only lines that could survive in this modern rural environment are those like the volunteer Gwili and they are doing a fine job and will eventually create jobs.

A very interesting observation .....I do wonder how much use was made of these lines in their "heyday" - the gentry and the Rev Kilvert would have made use of the "connectivity" to London etc - the locals would have largely stayed local , bar the odd excursion to say Hereford or Swansea / Merthyr. Cars of course , solved the issue from the 1950's - so the local lines slumbered off.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Actually Gareth it isn't too bad in Llani, as we have managed to publicise just how good we are, and what a good choice of shops, cafes and pubs we have, so we get quite a lot of visitors.

Poor employment opportunities in the town though. Most people seem to drive to Newtown these days. When I went to High School there in the 80's the platforms and trackbed were all still intact until destroyed by the bypass. Of the Upper 6th in 1989 just 4 of us live locally now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yesterday, I traced this line on Streetmap. Has there ever been a more sinuous route in the British Isles? No chance. I think the Gwili Railway has the best idea.
More suited to a bush 'plane service with landing grounds along the route. But that isn't legal in the Land of Uk where we have to have twin-engined aeroplanes and licensed airfields for a public service. Typical gold-plating.

The roads through Ceredigion are just as twisty!

 

[strettonarms96]

I always plan my journeys from Newtown on the basis of one hour to the dual carriageway at Ruabon and two hours to Merthyr. You might in practice do it quicker but you need an allowance for slow movers, toilet break etc.

I always nearly come back from the south via the A470 as it's an easier drive than concentrating on the A483 and it's twists after a long day.

I think the problem of roads in wales is the lack of service stations and public toilets! Toilet breaks are always in hedges if one is caught short! Also, slow moving traffic is just as bad a problem...

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think the problem of roads in wales is the lack of service stations and public toilets! Toilet breaks are always in hedges if one is caught short! Also, slow moving traffic is just as bad a problem...

Public toilets still exist in Llanidloes, Rhayader, Builth Wells, Erwood and the Storey Arms on the A470, Crickhowell has them too.

 

[PHILIPE]

Also roadside on A40 between Brecon and Bwlch

 

[Greenback]

Is there anything else to be said on the topic of Carmarthen Aber reopening?

 

[HowardGWR]

Is there anything else to be said on the topic of Carmarthen Aber reopening?

Yes, a bit re-opened just now. See report on Abergwili Junction.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Is there anything else to be said on the topic of Carmarthen Aber reopening?

It's not in the draft National Transport Plan released today. I'm sure regular observers of the welsh transport scene will know which two road schemes are:roll:

 

[krus_aragon]

It seems a pressure group will be speaking to the Welsh Secretary about their plans for reopening Carmarthen-Aberystwyth:

Campaigners calling for rail corridor to be re-instated along the west Wales coast are to get an opportunity to push their case with the Welsh Secretary.

Stephen Crabb told the House of Commons he would "very much welcome" the chance to meet the Traws Link Cymru group.

He was responding to a question by Ceredigion MP Mark Williams, who said reopening the line "would benefit the local economy immeasurably".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-30550788

 

[pablo]

But this sinuous route doesn't follow the west Wales coast. It only reaches it at Aberystwyth.
I wish some peeps would brush up on their geography.

 

[Greenback]

I'm sure that the Welsh Secretary isn't just hoping to score political points by agreeing to meet with the group and listen to them before the election next year. Is he?

 

[QJ]

I'm sure that the Welsh Secretary isn't just hoping to score political points

Agreeing to the proposal and finding the funds to re-open the line in my lifetime gets my vote with one proviso; operate the line with Hymeks and steam heat mark 1s.

this sinuous route doesn't follow the west Wales coast. It only reaches it at Aberystwyth.

And the West Coast mainline is any different. Hest Bank and that's it.

 

[Tumbleweed]

I think most rail schemes in South Wales have been knocked on the head for the forseeable future - there's more chance of a direct high speed line direct to the Moon than this one ever seeing the light of day.

 

[Greenback]

I think most rail schemes in South Wales have been knocked on the head for the forseeable future - there's more chance of a direct high speed line direct to the Moon than this one ever seeing the light of day.

Very succinct and very accurate!

 

[Tumbleweed]

Very succinct and very accurate!

Harsh but true.

The powers that be are far more interested in roads, as long as the car is king the Welsh government rail schemes will always come last, its been that way for decades. The M4 relief road will bleed public transport white for years to come, any rail schemes regardless of where you are in Wales will be pushed further back (or cancelled). This Metro they are on about won't leave the planning stages in my lifetime I fear.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Harsh but true.

The powers that be are far more interested in roads, as long as the car is king the Welsh government rail schemes will always come last, its been that way for decades. The M4 relief road will bleed public transport white for years to come, any rail schemes regardless of where you are in Wales will be pushed further back (or cancelled). This Metro they are on about won't leave the planning stages in my lifetime I fear.

The baby boomer bulge in the age pyramid is now reaching retirement age, where car ownership and usage will rapidly drop off as income declines, ailments increase and reactions slow, even though they'll live longer their propensity to drive will be on an ever downward curve. In Wales those on a downward curve in car usage will be forming an ever increasing %. In the meantime those reaching adulthood and replacing them in the workforce are less numerous. C800K per 5 year cohort compared to the baby boomer bulge in the UK. And this younger generation have a propensity to use cars less and defer car ownership and prefer urban living where public transport options are more viable.

Yet were told an increasing population means increased car usage.

 

[Llanigraham]

Harsh but true.

The powers that be are far more interested in roads, as long as the car is king the Welsh government rail schemes will always come last, its been that way for decades. The M4 relief road will bleed public transport white for years to come, any rail schemes regardless of where you are in Wales will be pushed further back (or cancelled). This Metro they are on about won't leave the planning stages in my lifetime I fear.

Really?
Then why is WAG spending money on the railway system at present?