Carlisle to Carstairs - off peak?

[cumbrianbill]

Hello

I'm looking online at a fare between Carlisle and Carstairs leaving Friday 24th and returning Saturday 25th.

I see an off peak return for £11.95 each way, but the journey planner only gives me the option of a 17:02 from Carlisle or the 21:02.

Both tickets involve changing at Haymarket.

I have two questions. Would the Carlisle - Haymarket portion be valid on a train such as the 19:02 from Carlisle?

Would I be able to leave the Station at Haymarket (Edinburgh's where I really want to go) to "get a drink". Similarly would I be able to simply board at Haymarket on the return?

Thanks - Bill

 

[yorkie]

Welcome to the forum

You are asking if a Carlisle-Carstairs ticket is valid via Haymarket?

There is no break of journey restriction on the return portion of Off Peak Returns, by the way.

The Off Peak Return (SVR) is £23.90 and is the fare you would be sold (I see you are looking at the awfully confusing Virgin Trains website!)

 

[Romilly]

Using the National Rail Enquiries website, if you search for a journey from Carlisle to Carstairs at your chosen times, opt to go via Edinburgh, and ask to be allowed a 2-hour connection time, you will then be offered the 1903 from Carlisle to Edinburgh.

The point is that there are no direct trains from Edinburgh to Carstairs between the 1826 and the 2321, although there is a 1911 but then you have to change at Motherwell.

This is a £23.90 Off Peak Return, the restriction code is 2T, which means no travel before 0415 Monday to Friday (but there is no restriction on breaking your journey, at Edinburgh or elsewhere).

So this would be valid to get off in Edinburgh on the Friday evening, and then do Edinburgh to Carlisle on the Saturday.

However, I could not persuade the East Coast website to offer me the ticket for sale, but the Virgin website will offer you a combination of two £11.95 offpeak singles (which then I think constitute an offpeak return).

 

[paddy1]

I was quite surprised that a return ticket from Carlisle to Carstairs permits travel via Haymarket (and Edinburgh) considering the very lengthy double back involved. But when I checked this myself on the National Rail Journey planner it does indeed permit this. It does not, however, permit doublebacking via Glasgow.

Out of curiosity, when I checked the fare between Lockerbie and Carstairs, it does show an off peak return fare of £20.40 but with that fare only valid via Glasgow. When I put in a via Haymarket routing, it came back as no return fares available and no through fare singles either, showing the only option as being a combination of singles both out and return costing around £44.00.

I am aware that there are no direct trains between either of these station pairings. However, it just seems rather perverse that if travelling from Carlisle to Carstairs you can double back via Haymarket/Edinburgh but not Glasgow but if travelling from Lockerbie to Carstairs you can double back via Glasgow but not Haymarket/Edinburgh.

So if you did want to travel from Lockerbie to Carstairs via Haymarket/Edinburgh, you would have to buy the slightly more expensive return from Carlisle and start short at Lockerbie, but then this would not permit you to travel via Glasgow.

Curious and bemused as to how the permitted routings between places where the journey would involve travel over a common section of route (via Lockerbie) can throw up such bizarre fare and routing anomalies and contradictions.

Anyone got a logical or plausible explanation for this discrepancy?

 

[bb21]

The explanation will not likely be logical to the average man. So which one do you want? The explanation or something logical?

 

[paddy1]

The explanation will not likely be logical to the average man. So which one do you want? The explanation or something logical?

Forget the logic. I'm sure there isn't any. Regarding the explanation, I can kind of half guess what your'e going to say, but I'm curious to hear it nonetheless.

 

[bb21]

Hmm, even I am a little confused.

The Routeing Guide shows that the only mapped route between Carlisle and Carstairs is on map GX, which shows a line between Carlisle and Haymarket via Carstairs. In reality we all know that direct trains between Carlisle and Haymarket do not go past Carstairs. Perhaps booking engines interpret that map correctly in terms of real-life geography?

Booking engines cannot detect the doubleback between Kirknewton and Haymarket due to the fact that none of the intermediate stations are timing points for direct Virgin/TPE services between Carlisle and Edinburgh, so this will not be an issue.

There is an easement permitting travel via Glasgow Central on a Carlisle ticket and I assume that it has not been correctly implemented.

Customers travelling via Lockerbie to Carstairs may double back via Glasgow Central.

The shortest route between Carlisle/Lockerbie and Carstairs on which regular scheduled passenger services operate is via Motherwell if my calculation is correct. Does NRE show that as permitted?

From Lockerbie, because it is a related station to Carstairs, only direct trains (none), the shortest route (which I believe is via Motherwell) and those no more than 3 miles longer are valid. I can't answer why booking engines are showing itineraries via Haymarket.

Sorry but I realise that I am unable to provide you with an explanation, logical or not. Perhaps someone who is more au fait with booking engines can shed some more light on this.

 

[paddy1]

No worries. Query is largely academic. I'm sure actual or potential traffic flow between Lockerbie and Carstairs (and Carlisle- Carstairs) is neglible and fare and routing possibilities is unlikely to be an issue for very many people. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

[cumbrianbill]

I bought the ticket and caught the 18:11 train from Carlisle - just!

A bit of a double take from the guard on the TPE train who seemed happy that I was heading for Carstairs via Haymarket.

Ticket would not access gates at Haymarket, but I was let through on a manual check.

Entered manually at Haymarket on the return.

No issues and an £8.00 saving on the trip - plus I was able to be more flexible as the fare was not an Advance.

Thanks for the advice.

Bill