Cark and Cartmel

[Bletchleyite]

This station, like Valley/Y Fali/Dyffryn, seems to be a bit confused about what it's actually called.

The TPE autoannouncer uses "Cark and Cartmel", and that's what it says on the tickets. I believe the nameboards used that in BR days too. The nameboards now say just "Cark".

But on the refurb Northern 156s, the unusual variant "Cark in Cartmel" is used, which is actually the correct name for the place as is seen on the street signs but is a term the railway has never used. I thought I'd misheard, then I overheard the guard and another member of staff travelling as a passenger discussing it.

I wonder why this is?

 

[30907]

Curious, I'd always assumed the Cartmel bit referred to the village with the Priory.

 

[cuccir]

Cartmel is also the name of the peninsula that the station is located, and I believe that when first built it was indeed called 'Cark-in-Cartmel'. National Rail Enquiries calls its Cark and Cartmel and I think that's the generally accepted name now, not sure when it changed!

 

[cuccir]

And while we're at it, the local intonation of the name of this peninsula and its neighbour is on the first, not the second sllyable: so CART-mel not cart-MEL, and FUR-ness not fur-NESS!!

 

[randyrippley]

the station is actually on the border of Cark and Flookburgh villages. Cartmel village (and priory) is a few miles up the road.
But all are sited on the Cartmel peninsula hence the "Cark in Cartmel" naming, just as Barrow-in-Furness in on the Furness peninsula.
Most people seem to think the Cartmel area is part of Furness: its not.
Properly the station should either be "Cark in Cartmel" or "Cark and Flookburgh", not "Cark and Cartmel"

 

[snowball]

But all are sited on the Cartmel peninsula hence the "Cark in Cartmel" naming, just as Barrow-in-Furness in on the Furness peninsula.

According to Wikipedia the village now known as Cartmel was previously called Kirkby in Cartmel.

and FUR-ness not fur-NESS!!

So just like furnace, which I believe is the origin of the name.

 

[yoyothehobo]

So just like furnace, which I believe is the origin of the name.

Not sure about that. Ness is from the old Norse word for Nose and generally means a spit of land and the old norse people did have a lot of influence in that neck of the woods

 

[yoyothehobo]

A bit more looking into it seems to suggest the root is from Far-Ness as a distant headland.

 

[snowball]

I stand corrected on the origins of Furness. I once saw a book which claimed it came from mediaeval furnaces which dotted the area to smelt the iron ore.

 

[cuccir]

I stand corrected on the origins of Furness. I once saw a book which claimed it came from mediaeval furnaces which dotted the area to smelt the iron ore.

I've seen the claim before so it's certainly not an unreasonable one to repeat! But it is one of these attractive myths I think.

the station is actually on the border of Cark and Flookburgh villages. Cartmel village (and priory) is a few miles up the road.
But all are sited on the Cartmel peninsula hence the "Cark in Cartmel" naming, just as Barrow-in-Furness in on the Furness peninsula.
Most people seem to think the Cartmel area is part of Furness: its not.
Properly the station should either be "Cark in Cartmel" or "Cark and Flookburgh", not "Cark and Cartmel"

It is an oddity that Flookburgh is the largest of the three villages yet is absent from the name - I can only presume it was smaller in the nineteenth century?

 

[yoyothehobo]

I stand corrected on the origins of Furness. I once saw a book which claimed it came from mediaeval furnaces which dotted the area to smelt the iron ore.

I find more interesting that Furness was a complete exclave of Lancashire and you could not get to the rest of Lancashire without going through Westmorland. Funny old world...

 

[snowball]

I find more interesting that Furness was a complete exclave of Lancashire and you could not get to the rest of Lancashire without going through Westmorland.

I think you could if you took advice from the Queen's Guide to the Sands.

 

[pdeaves]

Properly the station should either be "Cark in Cartmel" or "Cark and Flookburgh", not "Cark and Cartmel"

Could it be that the station serves 'Cark and also the wider region of Cartmel'?

 

[InOban]

I think you could if you took advice from the Queen's Guide to the Sands.

There are mileposts in the area which give the distance to Morecambe over the sands. The normal route in the days before the railway.

 

[spongsdad]

The November 1898 edition of the Railway Magazine, in an article about the attractions of that part of what was then Lancashire, refers solely to Cark station. By 1934 the LMS were certainly referring to it as Cark AND Cartmel which would be incorrect. It would certainly seem that the correct designation would be "Cark-in-Cartmel" or simply "Cark" as appears to be the case today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is an oddity that Flookburgh is the largest of the three villages yet is absent from the name - I can only presume it was smaller in the nineteenth century?

Only if you ignore Cartmel’s importance as a destination, e.g. for the racecourse. Though really Grange is a better railhead and is I think a bit closer (though there is a very big hill).

 

[randyrippley]

I find more interesting that Furness was a complete exclave of Lancashire and you could not get to the rest of Lancashire without going through Westmorland. Funny old world...

You couldn't really do it via Westmorland: the land north of Carnforth and on the north side of Morecambe Bay was an impassable bog. There was no real safe route north prior to the two Kendal turnpikes, and they never linked to a decent westerly road. Given the choice, the cross sands route was probably the safer option. The old drove roads to Scotland ran further east, up the Lune valley

 

[themiller]

Cartmel sticky toffee pudding- yummy!

 

[Roose]

And while we're at it, the local intonation of the name of this peninsula and its neighbour is on the first, not the second sllyable: so CART-mel not cart-MEL, and FUR-ness not fur-NESS!!

We'll said!

Never really understand this business of second syllable stress in place names - (almost?) always incorrect. In addition to Furness and Cartmel, Penrith seems to suffer from it, too. (And Carlisle, from Glaswegians.) Wonder why?

The Furness name comes surely from the far ness, or headland, not medieval bloomeries. Furness is divided from Cartmel by the River Leven and Windermere, a majority of whose shores are in historic Lancashire although the lake itself is in Westmorland.

 

[Bevan Price]

We'll said!


The Furness name comes surely from the far ness, or headland, not medieval bloomeries. Furness is divided from Cartmel by the River Leven and Windermere, a majority of whose shores are in historic Lancashire although the lake itself is in Westmorland.

Yes - more or less - according to Oxford Dictionary of British place Names. Derived from Old Scandinavian " Fuththernessa", meaning "headland by the rump-shaped island".

and Cartmel = "sandbank by rough stony ground" (Old Scandinavian "kartr" + "melr")

Cark = "a stone, a rock" (Celtic "carreg")

Flookburgh = "stronghold of a man named Floki" (from Old Scandinavian)

 

[MadMac]

Older readers may recall Houston & Crosslee station on the Kilmacolm line, which wasn't actually in either place!