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Career as a timetable planner

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Thebaz

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Afternoon

I was thinking what might be the way in as a timetable planner and what the salary would be roughly at entry level? I don't think I've ever seen it discussed here. When I was a teenager I did two-week's work experience in the timetabling department at Stephenson House in Croydon and enjoyed my time there. I'm in my early 40s now so it's probably too late to make the change now, but I can't help wondering!
 
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E16 Cyclist

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Network Rail were recruiting for that position recently based at Milton Keynes with a salary of around £25k
 

Thebaz

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Out of interest what were you expecting as someone with (presumably) no experience?
Rather a flippant comment on my part, I admit. Yes, I didn't expect a lot really for my two weeks of experience garnered 27 years ago. What about at the salary at the top end? and the length of time it takes to get there? Are there transferable skills from technical roles in different sectors?
 

nedchester

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I moved from teaching to train planning in my early 50s.

If you've got an analytical brain then go for it. I will say though that the wages offered by Network Rail for work at MK are rather poor in my opinion for the skill set required.

Try the TOCs
 

Thebaz

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I moved from teaching to train planning in my early 50s.

If you've got an analytical brain then go for it. I will say though that the wages offered by Network Rail for work at MK are rather poor in my opinion for the skill set required.

Try the TOCs
Thanks - I'll have a look.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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Afternoon

I was thinking what might be the way in as a timetable planner and what the salary would be roughly at entry level? I don't think I've ever seen it discussed here. When I was a teenager I did two-week's work experience in the timetabling department at Stephenson House in Croydon and enjoyed my time there. I'm in my early 40s now so it's probably too late to make the change now, but I can't help wondering!
I'm sure Tfw were recruiting for a similar position recently for approx 35k I think if I recall.
 

Dai Corner

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Out of interest, how does the work done by a NR timetable planner differ from that done by a TOC timetable planner?
 

Magdalia

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I'm retired, so I don't usually look at this part of the forum. But, if I ever worked on the railway, this is what I would have wanted to do. I will be reading to see what advice you get, and what you decide to do!

One thing I would say is not to constrain your interest too narrowly. There's also diagramming for rolling stock and train crew, platforming at major stations and paths for special trains, for example, that are related to planning the core timetable. You will hopefully get other suggestions of areas of railway operation that could be of interest to you.
 

nedchester

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What's the qualification needed for such roles? Does software development skill help?
I would say a good mathematical brain and be willing to learn.

A good geographical railway knowledge is also very helpful.

I know it's not the 'done thing' now but when working on a certain area go there and watch the movements and get a feel for the area you are planning.
 

miklcct

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I would say a good mathematical brain and be willing to learn.

A good geographical railway knowledge is also very helpful.

I know it's not the 'done thing' now but when working on a certain area go there and watch the movements and get a feel for the area you are planning.
It may seem a good fit for me given that I travel frequently to different areas for orienteering races and have national-class map reading skill.

I have failed in my previous career and I'm considering what to do next (starting a business? getting a transport planning masters?) if I can't find my perfect role again.
 

CW2

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30+ years ago the stereotypical train planner was a bit of a nerdy type. He (and they nearly always all male) would have an encyclopaedic knowledge of a particular area, and could expect to be planning trains in that area (alone) for the rest of his career. Typical traits were a good memory, an agile mind, and (in some cases) poor personal hygiene!

With the privatisation of the railways and the advent of computers, things changed somewhat. Fast forward a few decades, and train planning still has a need for the sort of skills @nedchester has outlined. However, some entry level roles may be only one step up from fairly repetitive data entry tasks. The stereotypical train planner of old is just about extinct, and there are now many more women in train planning roles at all levels (thank goodness).

As stated above, NR are the guardians of the overall timetable, current and future, including for planned engineering works. The individual TOCs are quite tightly bound by their paymasters as to the levels of services which can be offered / operated. Resource diagramming (an art in itself, with many rules and regulations to be observed) is done by individual TOCs. One underestimated skill is the ability to speak to the staff who are actually doing the job day after day, i.e. traincrews, traincrew supervisors, depot staff. Understanding the issues they face, and your ability to help overcome those issues, is an important part of the role. Of course, there will be pressures from other directions too, such as Finance Directors seeking to make financial savings, cut investments in rolling stock, reduce mileage etc. Throw in the usual toxic mix of industrial relations, DfT "oversight", and people who seem determined to make a name for themselves, and there's quite a lot to cope with.

To answer miklcct, in my view the sort of mind which can cope with software development might well enjoy working in train planning.
 

306024

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There is also so much more to operational planning than timing trains. Traction and crew diagramming, rostering, engineering possession planning, timetable planning for engineering work including replacement buses, all fascinating subjects to the right mind.

Standing on platforms watching the workings, cab riding and talking to staff are indeed less common now than my day, but still the best way to understand what you are asking people to do. And three of the best planners I worked with were all women so no barrier there either.
 

gordonthemoron

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I would say a good mathematical brain and be willing to learn.

A good geographical railway knowledge is also very helpful.

I know it's not the 'done thing' now but when working on a certain area go there and watch the movements and get a feel for the area you are planning.
The test you have to do is really hard, and I have a maths degree
 

Roger1973

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In theory, organisations can not limit trainee jobs to people under a certain age. Most large employers make an effort to have recruitment processes that reduce the effect of individual managers' prejudices / ideas about particular groups of people, but they can creep in.

I was offered a trainee train planner role (the exact job title can vary between TOC's) with a London based TOC just before lockdown started (which is largely why it didn't happen) - they were offering about 25K to start, and hinted at somewhere nearer 30K after the training stage. But bear in mind there's also travel concessions (75% off train season tickets - possibly free travel on some TOCs if you happen to live on one of their routes) and a decent pension scheme attached.

It's (from where I'm sitting) not entirely clear what will happen under GB Railways, whether the roles at TOCs and Network Rail will get rationalised. Those who are closer to it than me might be able to offer more informed thoughts on this angle.

If you're London based, then the Underground take on trainee schedule compilers (as they call the role) now and then - pay is quite a bit better than the TOC's there, and you get free TFL travel and again a decent pension scheme attached. Although again there is the current financial / political uncertainty around TFL. I can't see the whole underground getting closed down, but pay, conditions and pension scheme may not be all that secure.

Alternatively, bus companies occasionally recruit trainee schedulers / schedule compilers, but would expect similar sort of pay to TOCs (there seems to be a tradition since London Transport / National Bus Company was abolished that schedulers' pay rates are never disclosed and it's always a rate for the individual based on what company think they can get away with offering that individual rather than a specified pay grade / band structure.) Most bus companies don't offer a decent pension scheme now.
 

nedchester

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There is also so much more to operational planning than timing trains. Traction and crew diagramming, rostering, engineering possession planning, timetable planning for engineering work including replacement buses, all fascinating subjects to the right mind.

Standing on platforms watching the workings, cab riding and talking to staff are indeed less common now than my day, but still the best way to understand what you are asking people to do. And three of the best planners I worked with were all women so no barrier there either.

Not long after I started train planning I did a couple of cab rides and it is true that you learn a lot talking to on train staff. Little things where the driver knows where they’ll get an adverse signal due to the train in front calling at a station. Then looking at dwells on platforms and why sometimes a half or one minute dwell is near on impossible (try Manchester Piccadilly platform 14 in the peak!). Watch the signals as one train arrives and departs at certain stations. It gives you a feel for the job.
 
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Peregrine 4903

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The Network rail salary for Timetable Planner is £24,500 while you are training and a Level 1 compotent Planner, and then goes up to £26,500 once you become a Level 2 Compotent Planner.
 

nedchester

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The Network rail salary for Timetable Planner is £24,500 while you are training and a Level 1 compotent Planner, and then goes up to £26,500 once you become a Level 2 Compotent Planner.

And they wonder why MK gets such a poor reputation in the rail industry and staff turnover is high……….
 

306024

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Not long after I started train planning I did a couple of cab rides and it is true that you learn a lot talking to on train staff. Little things where the drive knows where they’ll get an adverse signal due to the train in front calling at a station. Then looking at dwells on platforms and why sometimes a half or one minute dwell is near on impossible (try Manchester Piccadilly platform 14 in the peak!). Watch the signals as one train arrives and departs at certain stations. It gives you a feel for the job.
A feel for the job - absolutely, you'll get so much more enjoyment if you see it as more than just a load of numbers.

If you are lucky, as a diagrammer you'll possibly get to meet with the ASLEF and RMT reps. No I haven't gone mad, there are some really good reps out there that have been a pleasure to work with. Even if we couldn't always meet their expectations it was important to be honest and explain why. You can't put a price on good industrial relations.
 

skyhigh

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I have failed in my previous career and I'm considering what to do next (starting a business? getting a transport planning masters?) if I can't find my perfect role again.
Seeing as you've brought this up - I saw a post on Reddit and wondered if it was you. You said your company had decided to let you go at the end of your probation period (from what I remember because you didn't fit into the team or follow instructions properly?). Just from reading your posts on here I get the impression you are very headstrong in your ideas and quite rigid in your thinking. I honestly don't think there's a 'perfect' job - there will always be something you wish you could improve. I'd just suggest that you might find life a little easier if you try to be a bit more flexible.
 

The Planner

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Join NR, get semi decent at it, then join a consultant. In terms of progression within the trade itself, it is like a lot of other things as its dead mans shoes in a lot of cases. Though to be fair a lot of people "die". Lots of other good info on this thread.
And they wonder why MK gets such a poor reputation in the rail industry and staff turnover is high……….
And that has gone up, it has never been a high paying role even pre MK. Until you get to the management bands whereupon you aren't sat in front of a graph all day anyway.
 

nedchester

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Join NR, get semi decent at it, then join a consultant. In terms of progression within the trade itself, it is like a lot of other things as its dead mans shoes in a lot of cases. Though to be fair a lot of people "die". Lots of other good info on this thread.

And that has gone up, it has never been a high paying role even pre MK. Until you get to the management bands whereupon you aren't sat in front of a graph all day anyway.

True but the sad thing is the good planners I’ve met at MK don’t stay in that role for long and move up the career ladder out of the role meaning that others “off the street” take their place.

The TOCS tend to hold onto to their planners for longer and pay better in my experience.
 

Peregrine 4903

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True but the sad thing is the good planners I’ve met at MK don’t stay in that role for long and move up the career ladder out of the role meaning that others “off the street” take their place.

The TOCS tend to hold onto to their planners for longer and pay better in my experience.
I'd defintley say some amazing planners do stay in the role for a long time though. Although they are almost always Specialists so are getting paid more anyway.
 

Watershed

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Afternoon

I was thinking what might be the way in as a timetable planner and what the salary would be roughly at entry level? I don't think I've ever seen it discussed here. When I was a teenager I did two-week's work experience in the timetabling department at Stephenson House in Croydon and enjoyed my time there. I'm in my early 40s now so it's probably too late to make the change now, but I can't help wondering!
There are two sides to mainline planning - Network Rail (NR) and the train operating companies (TOCs) and freight operating companies (FOCs).

Obviously there are also other railways, such as London Underground, the various tram networks, the Glasgow Subway and T&W Metro, all of which will have their own equivalent roles, sometimes with a slightly different mix of responsibilities.

It's probably easier to get into NR, as they regularly advertise for entry-level planning positions - which would be based in Milton Keynes. TOCs do advertise trainee planner positions, but it's not that common. They would be based at one of the offices of the relevant TOC - obviously several TOCs have offices in and around London, but outside that it's a bit more sparse. I think it would be very rare for a FOC to advertise for such a position.

Whilst most planners tend to start off when they're younger - seeing as entry level positions are usually not massively well paid by office job standards - age shouldn't be a barrier to entry. You would certainly have a lot more experience to rely on than someone who's only just left school or university. I know of a number of planners who did join when they were later in their career, so it's absolutely possible.

In terms of pay, entry-level positions at NR/TOCs will tend to pay around £25k - however it has to be borne in mind that there are very good travel facilities for most TOCs, and even NR staff still get a ~50% (after tax) discount off season tickets, plus most of the pension arrangements are reasonably generous.

Generally, the TOCs do pay better, as well as offering better travel facilities (if that matters to you), which is why there's relatively high turnover at NR, certainly amongst the lower 'grades'.

Once you progress, you should start to earn more and certainly once you get to managing people you could expect to be earning in the £40-60k range, depending on your exact responsibilities.

It's not the most lucrative profession by any means, and there's probably no more than 1000 people who work in it across the entire industry, but if you enjoy it, then you'll never feel like you have to work another day in your life!

As for @miklcct's questions - there aren't any particular qualifications that are vital to become a planner (obviously when applying, they may decide between similar candidates on the basis of qualifications, and they will probably require A levels or equivalent as a minimum). But if you have good attention to detail, a logical mind and can get on with others (bearing in mind you might need to ask for favours from time to time!), that will stand you in good stead.
 
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Firestarter

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Planner positions at FOC’s



 
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