Cardiff - Swansea Electrification Cancelled!

[class26]

Well there we have it, the tories just don't do trains, or Wales for that matter.

Can someone explain to me why the rest of Europe, Japan, Korea, and even India have extensivley electrified railways and our government keeps running from it? Is this something to do with the fall in oil prices? Are we going to be scrambling to electrify again when the oil goes up and these gas guzzling bimodes start hurting the bottom line?

I appreciate that a lot of the spotting community dislikes electric trains so I'm sure this is good news for them.

They make me sick these tories they really do. I have voted for them in the past what was I thinking?

Just a quick edit to say Im very sorry to hear of some of the cutbacks in England!

Political point
- far more miles have been electrified under Conservative governments than under labour. Fact.

 

[Darandio]

Political point
- far more miles have been electrified under Conservative governments than under labour. Fact.

Yet they have arguably had people by the balls on just about everything else, more than Labour ever did.

People have every right to vent their anger at this shower. This isn't just about some wires.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Political point
- far more miles have been electrified under Conservative governments than under labour. Fact.

And guess which PM did a huge amount despite being " anti-rail" - includes ECML, London -Norwich, London -Kings -Lynn, Bournemouth -Weymouth and a few more besides. Some even got done under Johnny Major - I think Carstairs- Edinburgh and Leeds north surburban scheme. Sure I am missing some too. Oh and under aforementioned person- a channel tunnel got built. Not too shabby.

 

[Gareth Marston]

And guess which PM did a huge amount despite being " anti-rail" - includes ECML, London -Norwich, London -Kings -Lynn, Bournemouth -Weymouth and a few more besides. Some even got done under Johnny Major - I think Carstairs- Edinburgh and Leeds north surburban scheme. Sure I am missing some too. Oh and under aforementioned person- a channel tunnel got built. Not too shabby.

But that's all in the past the Cardiff to Swansea and MML electrification were announced under Labour and then cancelled under the Tory's.

 

[Darandio]

Oh and under aforementioned person- a channel tunnel got built. Not too shabby.

Again, irrelevant. They weren't paying for it, it wouldn't have happened if they had to!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But that's all in the past the Cardiff to Swansea and MML electrification were announced under Labour and then cancelled under the Tory's.

They weren't.
Cardiff-Swansea was never in the Adonis announcements and not initially approved by the Coalition in 2010/11.
It crept into the 2012 HLOS after the DfT/WG funding deal for South Wales electrification generally (including the Valleys), but without a completion date.
It was also never part of the main GW electrification project (business case, contracts, environmental statements etc).

MML also first appeared in the 2012 HLOS under the Electric Spine banner, for delivery in CP5.

 

[CardiffKid]

But that's all in the past the Cardiff to Swansea and MML electrification were announced under Labour and then cancelled under the Tory's.

the cynic in me would remind you that it was announced in dying days of the Labour Government, a few weeks after the Conservatives beat Labour in a Welsh election for 90 odds years (June 2014 Euro Elections)

https://www.wired-gov.net/wg/wg-news-1.nsf/0/C8549E16746FF571802575FC00228F1F?OpenDocument

And the government at the time did say that

Work will start immediately

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

the cynic in me would remind you that it was announced in dying days of the Labour Government, a few weeks after the Conservatives beat Labour in a Welsh election for 90 odds years (June 2014 Euro Elections)
https://www.wired-gov.net/wg/wg-news-1.nsf/0/C8549E16746FF571802575FC00228F1F?OpenDocument
And the government at the time did say that

I think you might be reading too much into the commitment for Swansea at that time.
The event, and the "immediate start" was for the "London-South Wales" electrification.
This was bound to benefit Swansea (using IEPs) but I don't believe the wires were committed then beyond Cardiff.
Anyway, the Coalition soon afterwards "paused" all work for a capital projects review, and then re-authorised them one by one.
First was Crossrail, then wiring to Oxford/Newbury, then to Bristol/Cardiff - in fact I think there was a hiatus over Bristol-Cardiff for a whilei.
This specifically excluded Swansea, which had been assumed in the earlier announcements.
And the bitching has never stopped since, because it never appeared in any Network Rail plan as a commitment.

 

[Gareth Marston]

They weren't.
Cardiff-Swansea was never in the Adonis announcements and not initially approved by the Coalition in 2010/11.
It crept into the 2012 HLOS after the DfT/WG funding deal for South Wales electrification generally (including the Valleys), but without a completion date.
It was also never part of the main GW electrification project (business case, contracts, environmental statements etc).

MML also first appeared in the 2012 HLOS under the Electric Spine banner, for delivery in CP5.

Somebody's awake on their timeline

Shows how this has become a political football now and not a railway project. Cardiff and Bristol getting wired was part of the HS2 package as they would be missed out. The only other major British metropolitan area not connected by HS2 is South Hampshire which is a lot closer to London and already has juice via the 3rd rail. The decsion to wire was poilitical not part of a pan UK rail strategy and of course with the railways starved of real investment across swathes of the UK the calls to modernise then flooded in from all corners.

If we actually has a national policy of electrifying main lines between major conurbations and their commuter City region hinterlands it would help but that does mean spending away from London.

 

[IanXC]

Does anyone know if this is now going to mean the wires at the Swansea IEP Depot will be relegated to a monument to this sorry tale? Or has a grid connection already been provided?(!)

 

[BestWestern]

Does anyone know if this is now going to mean the wires at the Swansea IEP Depot will be relegated to a monument to this sorry tale? Or has a grid connection already been provided?(!)

I imagine they may well be used to power the sets while they're on shed rather than running the engines. Indeed, it may even be an agreed condition, there is a new housing development not far away from it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does anyone know if this is now going to mean the wires at the Swansea IEP Depot will be relegated to a monument to this sorry tale? Or has a grid connection already been provided?(!)

Hitachi need to test and maintain the electric parts of the train (pantograph, transformer etc) for the route east of Cardiff, so they need OHLE and an electrical supply.
They just won't be able to send them out on electric.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Hitachi need to test and maintain the electric parts of the train (pantograph, transformer etc) for the route east of Cardiff, so they need OHLE and an electrical supply.
They just won't be able to send them out on electric.

About sums this whole farce up they run on diesel from Cardiff to Swansea and then toddle round the depot @ Maliphant with the Pantograph up

 

[CardiffKid]

I think you might be reading too much into the commitment for Swansea at that time.
The event, and the "immediate start" was for the "London-South Wales" electrification.
This was bound to benefit Swansea (using IEPs) but I don't believe the wires were committed then beyond Cardiff.
Anyway, the Coalition soon afterwards "paused" all work for a capital projects review, and then re-authorised them one by one.
First was Crossrail, then wiring to Oxford/Newbury, then to Bristol/Cardiff - in fact I think there was a hiatus over Bristol-Cardiff for a whilei.
This specifically excluded Swansea, which had been assumed in the earlier announcements.
And the bitching has never stopped since, because it never appeared in any Network Rail plan as a commitment.

Electrification right the way through to Swansea announced in 2009: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/jul/23/gordon-brown-rail-electrification-wales

When the coalition government took over the year after they quite sensibly reviewed all govt capital projects.

London to Cardiff was confirmed/announced on St David's Day 2011:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-12606470

Cardiff to Swansea (and the Valleys) was announced in July 2012.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18828866

Cardiff to Swansea was as we all know dropped last week.

 

[XDM]

About sums this whole farce up they run on diesel from Cardiff to Swansea and then toddle round the depot @ Maliphant with the Pantograph up

If somebody agreed to paint the exterior of your house for £2,000 & also the granny flat for another £1,000 & the kid's play shed for £500, What would you do if, when they were mid painting your house, they said the house would now cost £8,000 & be finished years late? You would go to another painter & tell the first to get lost. The government can't do that, they are forced to use the one painter,network fail, or not do the job. So what would you do if a socialist government nationalised the painters & there was just one painting company, the one had quadrupled your costs? You would reluctantly tell them to finish the house & cancel the granny flat & shed. That is what the government have done. Do not blame Grayling, blame the overpaid Network Rail barons.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Electrification right the way through to Swansea announced in 2009: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/jul/23/gordon-brown-rail-electrification-wales

I can't find the proper DfT announcement in 2009 (it would be in a parliamentary statement), but ministers are quite careful to qualify their announcements with "subject to business case", and "necessary funding".
Reports in newspapers, and press conferences, don't count.
Chancellors have also been known to re-scope projects in budget statements.
You also get deliberate vagueness like "London-South Wales".
Basically, you wouldn't be able to hold the government to account for the non-delivery.

I don't believe Network Rail ever completed GRIP 3 for Cardiff-Swansea (ie produced a costed plan) before it was pushed into CP6 and now cancelled.
In any case, they have spent the money earmarked for it on the project east of Cardiff.
Ironically, one of the necessary precursors for electrification to Swansea was resignalling west of Port Talbot, and I think that is under way for completion later this year.

 

[CardiffKid]

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2009-09-09c.286653.h&s=Electrification#g286653.r0

Paul Clark Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Transport said on 9th Sept 2009:

The £1.1 billion electrification of the Great Western Main Line to Swansea and the line between Liverpool and Manchester announced on 23 July 2009

 

[snowball]

And here's the Railway Gazette from 23 July 2009:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...rification-planning-to-start-immediately.html

UK: An immediate start of detailed planning for electrification of the Great Western Main Line and Manchester Victoria - Liverpool route were announced by Secretary of State for Transport Lord Andrew Adonis on July 23.

The Great Western route will be electrified from London to Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea by 2017, along with the lines to Oxford and Newbury, at a cost of £1bn.

The 51 km route beween Manchester Victoria and Liverpool Lime Street will be electrified by 2013 at cost of £100m. Speeds on this line are to be raised from 120 km/h to 144 km/h under existing plans, and short sections are already wired.

The £1·1bn total investment will be funded by Network Rail with government support. Adonis said electrification will be self-financing in the medium term though lower train maintenance, leasing and operating costs, and as a result it can be undertaken without reducing planned infrastructure enhancement to 2014.

The electrification projects benefit from the overlap of a series of ongoing schemes, including the need to replace the diesel High Speed Train fleet over the next decade, Crossrail, the Thameslink Programme, a major rebuild of Reading station and the introduction of ERTMS. Co-ordination should keep costs down.

The government and Transport for London will consider the benefits of moving the terminus of the future Crossrail service west from Maidenhead to Reading.

And here's the government's own publication from July 2009, see page 17:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...on.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFexVVZxvPe6O1xM5YnI218EFsU_g

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

OK, I accept Swansea was in the Adonis announcements.
But it was not confirmed by the incoming government in 2010, until the Cameron/WG deal in 2012 for the CP5 HLOS covering also the Valleys scheme.
The killer, of course, is the £1 billion original cost of the overall GW project, which allowed it to be authorised.

 

[gareth950]

The original 2012 announcement was literally for everything in South East Wales to be wired, including the lines to Ebbw Vale, Cardiff - Bridgend via the mainline, Maesteg, and the lines to Penarth, Barry Island and Bridgend via the Vale of Glamorgan, as well as the newly named 'Core valley lines' to Aberdare, Treherbert, Merthyr and Rhymney.

No-one knows what's going on in secret with the new W&B franchise and Metro procurement, but any talk of electrifying anything beyond the 'Core valley lines' disappeared in October 2015, see here.
I've even read speculation (on social media, but it makes sense given recent announcements) the electrification / light rail conversion of the Core valleys is in doubt, due to the number of low bridges, narrow cuttings and the complexity of getting any wiring at all through Caerphilly tunnel, pushing costs up to eyewatering levels.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

-- and the complexity of getting any wiring at all through Caerphilly tunnel, pushing costs up to eyewatering levels.

Indeed - would need a Farnworth Tunnel approach - but the business case was reasonable for that iirc- Manchester - Blackpool + Scotland and of course MAN airport is a very busy airport.

There just would not be any sensible business case - only political will could drive that one.

 

[snowball]

I can't find an English language version, but Golwg360 reports that Ken Skates, Wales' Transport Minister, has written to Chris Grayling (UK Transport Secretary) asking for the £700m that had been earmarked for Cardiff-Swansea electrification to be invested in other rail projects in Wales.
Not going to happen, but it's worth a try!

English translation of that (translated by Google):

Thanks for making the effort Yes, I probably should have translated it myself. Google is very... optimistic!! It's a request for the re-allocation of £700m to Wales' railways:
(Excuse my annotations...)

May well correspond to this press release which has been on the WG website since the 21st:

http://gov.wales/newsroom/transport/2017/170721infra/?lang=en

Ken Skates demands £700m from UK Government for scrapping electrification across South Wales
The Welsh Government is demanding the estimated £700m saved by the UK Government by scrapping of the long-awaited Main Line electrification in South Wales be reinvested for future rail projects in Wales.
Friday 21 July 2017

Proposals for powers over rail infrastructure to be devolved to Welsh ministers should now also be progressed with immediate effect, Economy Secretary Ken Skates has said.

In a letter to UK Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling MP, Mr Skates described the decision as “extremely disappointing” and demanded answers on how and when Welsh communities would see the money promised for electrification of the mainline to Swansea.

Ken Skates wrote:

“Funding and delivery of electrification to Swansea was announced in 2012, and restated in 2014 by the Prime Minister David Cameron. There was a commitment for £105m for the delivery of the Cardiff-Bridgend section of the Main Line electrification scheme, part of a wider investment estimated at £700m to electrify the line to Swansea.

“The scheme would have delivered important journey time, reliability, efficiency and emissions benefits, promoting economic growth across South Wales. For the UK Government to announce the cancellation of this scheme at this stage and through the press, with no prior warning, was hugely disappointing.

“Yesterday’s announcement did not describe how the £105m promised would be allocated to the Welsh Government now that the Cardiff-Swansea scheme has been cancelled. Neither did it address the hugely damaging historic underspend in Wales over recent years.

“Passengers across Wales experience poor network reliability, low speeds, and capacity constraints which results in a much smaller proportion of people choosing to travel by train than in England and Scotland. It is imperative that our rail infrastructure gets the urgent funding it needs to deliver the fast, reliable and frequent services needed to support our communities and businesses, and to grow our economy.”

Mr Skates pointed out that although the Wales route area has around 11 per cent of the railway track, since 2011 it has only benefited from around 1.5 per cent of the money spent by the UK Government on rail enhancements.

He added:

“This is damaging to our economy and to our communities and either urgent investment is needed to correct this historical under-investment and the £700m shortfall, or the long awaited proposals to devolve powers to Welsh Ministers over rail infrastructure should be progressed with immediate effect, alongside a fair and proportionate funding settlement.

“I would welcome a commitment from you to ensure the estimated £700m funding that would have been provided to deliver electrification to Swansea is instead ring-fenced for projects in Wales. This must be in addition to a fair proportion of funding allocated to Wales for other rail enhancements in the future.”

 

[CapitalStar378]

Network Rail's investment in Wales is pathetic, I'm not sure why the new platform 5 at Cardiff Queen St gets a few bus shelters and platform 8 at Cardiff Central gets a tiny canopy when there are hundreds of millions being invested in English stations such as Birmingham New Street, Reading and King's Cross.

There is clearly no interest in Wales from NR or the UK government.

 

[Envoy]

Network Rail's investment in Wales is pathetic, I'm not sure why the new platform 5 at Cardiff Queen St gets a few bus shelters and platform 8 at Cardiff Central gets a tiny canopy when there are hundreds of millions being invested in English stations such as Birmingham New Street, Reading and King's Cross.

There is clearly no interest in Wales from NR or the UK government.

Yes, and the new south entrance to Cardiff Central is pretty pathetic. Not what you would expect for the thriving capital city of Wales. It does not even have seat/waiting area for those who are meeting people off the trains. Cardiff Central does not even have toilets - apart from those that are actually on the platforms and built in the 1930’s.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Network Rail has upgraded Newport and Llandudno stations, but not to much applause for either.
Money has also been spent on Chester and Shrewsbury ATW stations, but again it's not what you would call impressive, more a refurbishment.
Personally I think Sheffield is the best recent example of a large non-London station upgrade, which Cardiff might aspire to.
Nottingham isn't bad either.

 

[PHILIPE]

Cardiff Central also has no indoor cafe on the platforms, just an outdoor kiosk with no seating. There is one down below, but outside the barriers thus putting people out of close contact with trains and receiving running information.

 

[BestWestern]

Reading also only has toilets on the platforms, built a couple of years ago! I don't see why that's a massive issue, Cardiff Central still functions purely as a station and not as a 'venue', so the facilities are aimed at those travelling, rather than people shopping/eating etc. The toilets at Cardiff are also free, aren't they? Plenty of places where they aren't.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Network Rail has upgraded Newport and Llandudno stations, but not to much applause for either.
Money has also been spent on Chester and Shrewsbury ATW stations, but again it's not what you would call impressive, more a refurbishment.
Personally I think Sheffield is the best recent example of a large non-London station upgrade, which Cardiff might aspire to.
Nottingham isn't bad either.

I used Llandudno Junction the other week - in very poor condition - probably last painted in Wales and West days , very untidy approaches , weeds , litter etc - rather dissapointing , and not that there are not "managers" based there as there is (I believe) a train crew depot. I would not have tolerated that level of "just about squalor" in my days on the front line.

 

[Olaf]

That request for GBP 700 Million is not going to work; The impact of the NR cost over-runs on tax payer funds is now about GBP 6 Billion, and there are no signs yet that NR has made any progress on recovering the GBP 1.6 (Not sure of the exact figure) Million from asset sales either.

 

[hwl]

That request for GBP 700 Million is not going to work; The impact of the NR cost over-runs on tax payer funds is now about GBP 6 Billion, and there are no signs yet that NR has made any progress on recovering the GBP 1.6 (Not sure of the exact figure) Million from asset sales either.

Barnett Formula...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_formula