Cardiff Central - Passenger Information

[F Great Eastern]

Is it me or does the standard of passenger information being supplied at Cardiff Central leave an awful lot to be desired, both in spoken and in visual form?

I understand the fact that every announcement has to be in English and in Welsh, but is there also the need to announce every single arriving and terminating train as well? It's just overload.

I've seen trains depart before they are even announced on several occasions during a week in Wales, because their announcement is at the end of a queue of announcing arrivals in both languages, the departure in Welsh and finally a departure in English.

Announcing arrivals itself itself is something I'm not fond of, but the last place it's suitable is where everything else is already being double announced at a busy station.

I've also seen delayed or cancelled services not being announced at all as being cancelled or delayed, but instead the constant drivel of arrivals being announced is there which is of no use to anyone whatsoever.

The screens leave a lot to be desired as well, I've heard an announcement advising a train to Holyhead at Platform 2 which is standing at Platform 1, with screens showing the train as having arrived on both platforms which led to a number of people missing a train this morning and generally I've seen a lot of incorrect information on them in relation to services showing as arrived that haven't, or platform changes that are not reflected.

Also the screens in the main hall are clearly divided into Valley lines and longer distance trains in two groups but it's not obvious for a new person. Why can't they just have one bank of screens for the whole lot or if they are going to divide them at least have it indicated, it'd save the information desk many queries.

The signage isn't great either, try finding the gents toilets for instance, my travel companion was unable to find them as they were not indicated anywhere and for the GWR train to Paddington which was 2x 5 car 800s there was no indication of what end of the train was which and it was a 10 car before it turned up, so you have people running whole length of platform.

Is it time that Network Rail took over the running of the station to bring it up to scratch with other category A stations? A capital city really deserves better.

 

[Dr Day]

Someone with better knowledge of the signalling than me will give a better explanation, but the 'arrived' indication when the train is not at the platform I believe comes from the relevant point the train has to be over to trigger the system being a long way out - at least on the west side for eastbound services which have turned around in the Brickyard (eg Nottingham-Cardiff-Nottinghams).

Agree with you about the announcement of arrivals which can be confusing if you pick up over the tannoy the platform and a station name but not the relevant 'from' bit. The few people interested in arrivals (say those picking up arriving passengers) are more than likely waiting outside the gateline, so don't need to know the platform.

Another bugbear of mine is the lack of a and b ends on platforms 1 and 2 - appreciate there are many 'long' trains using those platforms but also many 2 or 3 cars which often get delayed as non-regular passengers all have to rush down to one end of the platform.

I do find the human announcements over-riding the auto announcements good - and the personal 'Your' eg "Your Bristol train is on platform 2". Rarely hear one in Welsh though.

But I'm not convinced Network Rail running the station would change anything.

 

[Paul Dancey]

As a fairly regular user of Cardiff Central I don't really have an issue with the announcements. I guess it helps that I am local and can usually understand both Welsh and English platform announcements, even though I'm not a fluent Welsh speaker. But I guess for others less used to bilingual announcements it can be quite confusing at times. What I do have an issue with are the platform information screens which seem to flip quickly through arrivals and departures before you can scan down for your train, and then linger for ages on notices about leaving unattended luggage etc. Surely these don't need to be included in every cycle of information.

 

[F Great Eastern]

As a fairly regular user of Cardiff Central I don't really have an issue with the announcements. I guess it helps that I am local and can usually understand both Welsh and English platform announcements, even though I'm not a fluent Welsh speaker. But I guess for others less used to bilingual announcements it can be quite confusing at times. What I do have an issue with are the platform information screens which seem to flip quickly through arrivals and departures before you can scan down for your train, and then linger for ages on notices about leaving unattended luggage etc. Surely these don't need to be included in every cycle of information.

The bilingual announcements itself are not a problem, that is not what I was saying I have no issue with them and they should be there as it is Wales after al and Welsh is an official language!

The problem is that when everything is already being announced twice, there is even less space for arrival information to be announced without impacting timely departure announcements. Announcing arrivals in itself is not needed if you ask me, but if there is a time to certainly not use it, it's in a bi-lingual environment.

I've been in Cardiff where a cross station train has pulled in and you'll hear an annoncement for an arriving service in Welsh, an announcement for an arriving service in English, an announcement for the departing station in Welsh, the doors close and only then does the PIS get around to the English departure information, because that cannot be played until the other three things higher up the queue.

The simple way to fix this is not to get rid of the Welsh, it's to get rid of the arrival announcements and therefore you get rid of the problem. If you have to announce the arrivals, do so in the hall where it might be useful, not on platforms where it is just noise that blocks out the signal of what's really important.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Someone with better knowledge of the signalling than me will give a better explanation, but the 'arrived' indication when the train is not at the platform I believe comes from the relevant point the train has to be over to trigger the system being a long way out - at least on the west side for eastbound services which have turned around in the Brickyard (eg Nottingham-Cardiff-Nottinghams).

Thanks, that's a nice explanation.

Agree with you about the announcement of arrivals which can be confusing if you pick up over the tannoy the platform and a station name but not the relevant 'from' bit. The few people interested in arrivals (say those picking up arriving passengers) are more than likely waiting outside the gateline, so don't need to know the platform.

Agree, it's just pointless noise to the signal and not very useful and blocks up what is useful. People will need tickets to get to the platforms so they will be traveling, play it in the hall, but even then you don't need a platform number.

Another bugbear of mine is the lack of a and b ends on platforms 1 and 2 - appreciate there are many 'long' trains using those platforms but also many 2 or 3 cars which often get delayed as non-regular passengers all have to rush down to one end of the platform.

Happens on long trains as well, see for example a 10 car GWR IEP where in the half a dozen times I've been to Cardiff Central recently, it's NEVER announced as to which way round the train is or even if it's a 9 car or what. Very hard to know what's going on and people fly from one end to the other of the platform or get on the wrong section of the train. GWR put posters and videos up in Cardiff Central to check you are in right half of train before boarding but it would be nice if the PIS and the announcements would help with that . Once I saw 'First class in coaches 4,5,6,7" which apart from the fact it uses numbers rather than letters, tells you nothing about which end is which.

Breaking them down to a and B would be good as well for the reasons you say, I've seen people miss trains to Holyhead as they are up one end of the platform and didn't see the train at the other end which pulled out without them All of this could easily be overcome by dividing it into sections.

I do find the human announcements over-riding the auto announcements good - and the personal 'Your' eg "Your Bristol train is on platform 2". Rarely hear one in Welsh though.

But I'm not convinced Network Rail running the station would change anything.

Unfortunately I've found this hit and miss, sometimes there is desperate needs for manual announcements to correct something incorrect on the screens or announcements and there really isn't and I've also seen services cancelled and showing up as so for 15-20 minutes without ever a single announcement. Manual announcements should be always happening when the auto ones are incorrect and services have been cancelled.

The thing about Network Rail managed stations is generally their information provision, layout and accuracy is spot on.

 

[Envoy]

The fixed signage is not that good. For example, people who have never been to Cardiff descend the stairs to the passageway to find no indication as to which way to go to the city centre. It would also help if the south exit direction was indicated for those wishing to catch buses to the Bay.

I agree that the main destination boards constantly flipping between the two languages is very confusing. However, I think it could be useful to have arrivals announced as some people have gone to the platforms (with permission), to help the elderly or collect children off trains.

As everybody (just about) understands English and the fact that it has become the international language of the world, surely means that it should take precedence over Welsh? With English announced first, the majority could be on their way to the correct platforms without having to stand around like dummies whilst they give the announcements in Welsh first. (Yes, I do live in Wales).

I also note that the station does not have any toilets outside of the barriers to gain entry to platforms. Of course, it could be claimed that this is a good thing as it deters undesirables from entering the station.

 

[F Great Eastern]

However, I think it could be useful to have arrivals announced as some people have gone to the platforms (with permission), to help the elderly or collect children off trains.

Do you think it is acceptable that the less important arrival announcements are pushing the more important departure announcements so far down the PIS queue at times that said departure announcements are not firing until the departing train has already locked it's doors and/or left.

I don't have a problem that the arrival announcements are being made per se, but a station like Cardiff Central where everything is being annonced twice and is also a terminus for many routes is prboably one of the least sensible places to do it as it just gets in the way of the important stuff like departure announcements.

I also note that the station does not have any toilets outside of the barriers to gain entry to platforms. Of course, it could be claimed that this is a good thing as it deters undesirables from entering the station.

What is also confusing is that in the main hall there is a sign for disabled toilets but not one for Ladies or Gents toilets, when I came through Platform 0 I had to ask barrier staff where the toilets were, they're not even signposted properly on the platforms themselves.

 

[trebor79]

As everybody (just about) understands English and the fact that it has become the international language of the world, surely means that it should take precedence over Welsh?

Got to say I find the bilingual thing in Wales to be a bit silly and I did find Cardiff and Newport stations more difficult to use than usual due to the electronic boards flipping between English and Welsh and the fixed signage made tricky with my eyes not immediately knowing which text to focus on.
I work for a Welsh company, nobody speaks Welsh in the office or in their personal lives so far as I can tell.

I also saw platform displays not updating, still showing details for trains that departed 20 minutes previously, and departure boards showing wrong platforms. Eg there was apparently a train to Holyhead before the Paddington train from my platform according to the main board. I got to the platform to find it displaying old information and then my Paddington train arrived. No sign of the Holyhead. I presume it was on a different platform entirely.

 

[Mrs. Fortescue]

Here we go. The anti-Welsh bores pop out again.

Would you go to a French station and demand that English is first for the English passengers?!

Welsh train station slated for using Welsh. Ludicrous.

 

[Mrs. Fortescue]

I work for a Welsh company, nobody speaks Welsh in the office or in their personal lives so far as I can tell.

So because nobody in your firm speaks Welsh, Cardiff Central shouldn’t use Welsh in their announcements?

Do you not realise how ludicrous that sounds?

By the way, bilingual people tend not to speak Welsh to non-Welsh speakers, it’s quite rude.

 

[ValleyLines142]

A big problem I found the other day at Cardiff Central was when platforms 3 and 4 were closed for engineering works and all mainline services in both directions were using platforms 1 and 2. There were too many services funnelled through and they couldn't cope with the sheer number of services. Announcements and platform displays were going mental then because of the delays.

The GWR situation isn't too bad because First Class is usually indicated by the order of the carriage numbers, so if First Class just so happens to be at the rear of both sets, the boards will show it as 'First Class is in coaches 4, 5, 9 and 10'. Which seems to work well, as by process of elimination you can work out where the rest of the train will be.

I agree with arrivals however. They could just be shown downstairs. Nobody needs to know on the platform that the next train has come from wherever. Unless it's their train, they won't bat an eyelid.

 

[pdeaves]

Here we go. The anti-Welsh bores pop out again.
Would you go to a French station and demand that English is first for the English passengers?!
Welsh train station slated for using Welsh. Ludicrous.

That's not the issue. The issue is the super-long arrivals announcements taking up valuable Tannoy time.

(A separate issue that is even harder to resolve is multiple announcements at once, that are really difficult for the hard of hearing to interpret).

 

[Mrs. Fortescue]

I’m well aware that wasn’t the original point, however, if you note - the usual bores have popped up claiming a station serving the capital city of its country, shouldn’t be using the language of that country.

Ludicrous and offensive.

 

[mmh]

I agree that the main destination boards constantly flipping between the two languages is very confusing.

Who are you agreeing with? Nobody else has said this.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I also saw platform displays not updating, still showing details for trains that departed 20 minutes previously, and departure boards showing wrong platforms. Eg there was apparently a train to Holyhead before the Paddington train from my platform according to the main board. I got to the platform to find it displaying old information and then my Paddington train arrived. No sign of the Holyhead. I presume it was on a different platform entirely.

There is a re-occuring problem with Holyhead and Paddington trains on Platform 1 which I saw several times in the last few week which is very confusing and if I've seen it a few times in a short period it cannot be that uncommon.

Normally what happens is the Holyhead train shows on Platform 2 Displays and then about a couple of minutes before it is due, it starts showing up on Platform 1's screen. The departure announcement, queued behind a batch of arrival announcements, then announces it as being on Platform 2, and the 175 then pulls into Platform 1 right at the very very far end. Some people don't see it, the train leaves without the passengers who then complain about missing their ferry.

I've also saw cancelled trains showing up as the first train to arrive at a platform, even though they were trains from 20 minutes ago and then the next train pulling into the platform even though it says it's the second train, which is actually due at that time.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The GWR situation isn't too bad because First Class is usually indicated by the order of the carriage numbers, so if First Class just so happens to be at the rear of both sets, the boards will show it as 'First Class is in coaches 4, 5, 9 and 10'. Which seems to work well, as by process of elimination you can work out where the rest of the train will be.

Sure, but that doesn't help you to know what way around the train is, sometimes you don't get that information at all - is it so hard for an announcement to be made saying what end of the train is coach A and what end of the train is the last coach? Because it's not really obvious, especially from someone new to Cardiff Central who has a reservation for a train that is in two halves and they must get in the right half?

If they cannot do this then surely they need to get displays to do this job for them. If Network Rail can do this why can't Transport for Wales? In any case, I've seen those displays that say First class is in 4,5,6,7 when actually it's been 1,2,9,10 or 4,5,9,10 at Cardiff, expecting someone with a reservation to know which half to get on so they can actually get to their seat without getting off at the nect station and changing their half of the train would be really helpful. Knowing you are in Carriage A for instance is all well and good, but it could be the first coach or the last coach and honestly, it does really vary.

 

[krus_aragon]

I agree that the main destination boards constantly flipping between the two languages is very confusing. However, I think it could be useful to have arrivals announced as some people have gone to the platforms (with permission), to help the elderly or collect children off trains.

As everybody (just about) understands English and the fact that it has become the international language of the world, surely means that it should take precedence over Welsh? With English announced first, the majority could be on their way to the correct platforms without having to stand around like dummies whilst they give the announcements in Welsh first. (Yes, I do live in Wales).

I'd suggest that having two main destination boards side-by-side would be a better solution, one for each language (going English-first would still mean you'd be flipping between one language and the other). Then let them scroll through page 1, page 2 in the respective language.

(Here's a sample picture of some of Cardiff Central's departure boards. Currently (from right to left) one main arrivals screen, two main departures screens, and the remainder detailed information for each train.)

That'd deal with the departures. The arrivals currently only occupy a single board, flipping between languages. I wouldn't suggest giving an extra board to do the same side-by-side approach as the departures. It may be possible to combine Welsh and English onto a single display by using three lines of the display for each train, rather than two. Something like:

06:42  Penybont-ar-Ogwr
       Bridgend
       Exp/Disg 06:44  Pl 6

Or keep both placenames up at all times, and alternate between languages for the annotation:

06:52  Abertawe
       Swansea
       Ar amser      Plat 1
///---------then-------///
06:52  Abertawe
       Swansea
       On time       Plat 1

People looking for arrivals will be searching by the time and/or origin station. Keeping these parts displayed all the time would be less disorientating that having the placenames swap over. The annotations (on time, cancelled, plat) are the same for any train. If a passenger hasn't worked out their meaning in either language from context while waiting for their train to show on the board (or from previous experience), they will at least be able to locate their train on the board, and be looking in the right place when the display changes. (Also, with so little information changing, the board could flip between languages more frequently, as there's less information that's "disappearing" that needs to be taken in by the passenger first.)

Come to think of it, this system could be equally practical on the Departures boards, too.

As for the boards displaying train-specific detailed information, I don't have any ideas to hand that would be an improvement on the current alternation between languages.

A significant problem with these boards is that they're made for the UK market as a whole. The ability to display information in multiple languages is a niche feature within the UK market, so operators seem to have to work with what they've got. Does the board's software allow reprogramming so that the info of each train is spread over three lines, with the contents of the third line alternating? I have no idea . (Infotec's brochure doesn't mention anything about how customisable the display is.)

 

[Dai Corner]

A significant problem with these boards is that they're made for the UK market as a whole. The ability to display information in multiple languages is a niche feature within the UK market, so operators seem to have to work with what they've got. Does the board's software allow reprogramming so that the info of each train is spread over three lines, with the contents of the third line alternating? I have no idea . (Infotec's brochure doesn't mention anything about how customisable the display is.)

I'm sure Infotec would be happy develop whatever features are required as long as somebody (ultimately the Welsh Government) will pay for it.

I'd much prefer the two languages to be on separate displays.

 

[pdeaves]

with the contents of the third line alternating?

One solution is to have all three lines alternating, but the first two lines alternate between the same thing so it looks constant.

 

[krus_aragon]

I'm sure Infotec would be happy develop whatever features are required as long as somebody (ultimately the Welsh Government) will pay for it.

True. There's something in the "system" that seems to make it difficult, though. (Be it cash, institutional inertia, or something else.) See the monolingual "text-to-speech" announcements at stations of the Cambrian Coast (and other places), for a related example.

 

[krus_aragon]

One solution is to have all three lines alternating, but the first two lines alternate between the same thing so it looks constant.

I hope that would be easy to do, but I didn't feel like mentioning it when I was being so doubtful about the actual capabilities of the systems involved. (That is, I just don't know how the innards of the system work.)

 

[Dai Corner]

True. There's something in the "system" that seems to make it difficult, though. (Be it cash, institutional inertia, or something else.) See the monolingual "text-to-speech" announcements at stations of the Cambrian Coast (and other places), for a related example.

I hadn't heard of the Cumbrian Coast system. Text-to-English modules are plentiful and cheap so that facility would be easy to provide.

Bangor University have developed text-to-Welsh software and made it available free of charge. Time and effort would be needed to integrate with the PIS though.

https://www.bangor.ac.uk/canolfanbedwyr/wispr.php.en

I wonder how this lies with the Welsh Language Act? I'd have thought the Welsh Government would have made bi-lingual announcements compulsory throughout Wales.

 

[oglord]

I’m well aware that wasn’t the original point, however, if you note - the usual bores have popped up claiming a station serving the capital city of its country, shouldn’t be using the language of that country.

Ludicrous and offensive.

Let's not go overboard here. Everyone in Wales speaks English, as it is the de facto language of the UK. The WAG has made both English and Welsh official languages, so common sense would dictate that they are presented in order of which is spoken the most.

 

[Envoy]

Here we go. The anti-Welsh bores pop out again.

Would you go to a French station and demand that English is first for the English passengers?!

Welsh train station slated for using Welsh. Ludicrous.

The majority of the population of France can speak French. The majority of the population of Wales can speak English but only around 20% can speak Welsh. It seems to me that Welsh speakers from remote villages in Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion, Gwynedd & Anglesey are calling all the shots. Nobody has asked the people of Wales in a referendum whether they wanted to change their language from English to Welsh.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

The majority of the population of France can speak French. The majority of the population of Wales can speak English but only around 20% can speak Welsh. It seems to me that Welsh speakers from remote villages in Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion, Gwynedd & Anglesey are calling all the shots. Nobody has asked the people of Wales in a referendum whether they wanted to change their language from English to Welsh.

We don't need a referendum on changing anything thank you, nothing has been changed from English to Welsh, Welsh has been around a lot longer than Enlgish.

The low number of Welsh spoken amongst the people is mainly because of the amount of English ( or other nationalities) that have moved into Wales.

The amount of Welsh born people who speak Welsh I would suggest is quite a bit higher. Welsh is here to stay and growing nicely at the moment. Deal with it.

 

[oglord]

The low number of Welsh spoken amongst the people is mainly because of the amount of English ( or other nationalities) that have moved into Wales.

Nice xenophobia there. I was born in Monmouthshire (officially part of Wales since 1974) and I do not speak Welsh. Despite being mandatory at GCSE level, thousands of 16-year-olds have no interest in it and are leaving school with one fewer GCSE than they should have, and not being able to speak Welsh.

 

[krus_aragon]

The majority of the population of France can speak French. The majority of the population of Wales can speak English but only around 20% can speak Welsh. It seems to me that Welsh speakers from remote villages in Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion, Gwynedd & Anglesey are calling all the shots. Nobody has asked the people of Wales in a referendum whether they wanted to change their language from English to Welsh.

We don't need a referendum on changing anything thank you, nothing has been changed from English to Welsh, Welsh has been around a lot longer than Enlgish.

The low number of Welsh spoken amongst the people is mainly because of the amount of English ( or other nationalities) that have moved into Wales.

The amount of Welsh born people who speak Welsh I would suggest is quite a bit higher. Welsh is here to stay and growing nicely at the moment. Deal with it.

Nice xenophobia there. I was born in Monmouthshire (officially part of Wales since 1974) and I do not speak Welsh. Despite being mandatory at GCSE level, thousands of 16-year-olds have no interest in it and are leaving school with one fewer GCSE than they should have, and not being able to speak Welsh.

If you want to discuss the relative merits of accommodating a minority language, I'll happily join you on another thread. Let's keep this thread to the practicalities of how to do it in a busy station like Cardiff Central.

 

[Dai Corner]

If you want to discuss the relative merits of accommodating a minority language, I'll happily join you on another thread. Let's keep this thread to the practicalities of how to do it in a busy station like Cardiff Central.

Hear, hear!

The fact is, both languages have to be treated equally by public bodies in Wales so let's just accept that and move on.

In some busy stations different platforms have different announcements. I can't remember whether that's the case at Central but if not would separate ones for the Valleys platforms (6/7/8) be a good idea?

 

[mmh]

In some cases recorded announcements could be improved by removing superfluous stuff from them. I've never been to Cardiff but at an initial guess "Transport for Wales" and "Great Western Railway" could go from them.

I don't see any real value in announcing the arrival of terminating trains, or for through trains announcing where they've come from. People who're meeting arriving passengers don't randomly go the station and then check when the train from Blah is due, they know the time in advance. Only major stations ever have Arrivals display boards, everywhere else does without them. What are they actually used for? Mobile phones are ubiquitous these days and the passenger will more likely than not have contacted the person meeting them to tell them of any significant delay. At a station like Cardiff Central (which I'm guessing will be barriered), what's the use of knowing what platform the train from Blah is arriving on?

Most of my experience of meeting people at stations and being met is at smaller stations than Cardiff, but do people in cities really act differently and need arrival times? If I'm picking someone up at Llandudno Junction I'll tell them to phone me when they're getting near, say Rhyl, then I know I've got plenty of time to drive round to be there in time for them.

London Waterloo station does, or did at least, a really daft thing with arrival announcements. They're not generally announced (it's so busy it would be chaos if they were), but platform alterations on arrivals are! So you'll get random announcements like "The 16:35 service from Basingstoke will now arrive on platform 6", which really are of no use to anyone.

 

[Paul Dancey]

Hear, hear!

The fact is, both languages have to be treated equally by public bodies in Wales so let's just accept that and move on.

In some busy stations different platforms have different announcements. I can't remember whether that's the case at Central but if not would separate ones for the Valleys platforms (6/7/8) be a good idea?

Yes 6,7 & 8 are split, but I've never noticed if there are any other splits.