Card processing discussion

[gunn13]

Northern conductors cannot swipe after a card is declined, we have a modification on our machines that if a card declines and you try to swipe it it won't allow it. We have unofficial workarounds for it but its been changed for a reason and if it declines then we're in for it. We don't have a authorisation helpline like other TOCs

Curious; how does this work for high value transactions? Presumably you would still need to get authorisation for fares over a certain limit?
Not sure if all TOCs are the same but we have certain limits (varies by card network), which anything over must be swiped and phoned for authorisation.
The authorisation telephone numbers are not TOC specific and are the same for all merchants (outside of the railway too) usually. But for on-train staff usually each depot has its own merchant number to use when phoning through.

Personally I am quite vigilant when dealing with card payments having worked for a card fraud department of a bank prior to joining the railway.
If a card declines due to the wrong PIN then I won't even think about swiping it. If it is not signed, I will ask the passenger for photo ID with their name and signature and then ask them to sign the card before getting an authorisation. If they can't produce this, I won't swipe.
Very few of my colleagues bother to do authorisations at all, preferring TIs or telling passengers to purchase at the gateline. I was very surprised to learn how few actually even knew it was possible let alone how to do it. It was not something we were formally given training on but the procedure is laid out clearly in our manuals.
The few minutes it takes is worth it to save the passenger extra hassle usually. And when it is a passenger knowingly using a card they know will decline, it is worth it for the look on their face when it gets authorised!

 

[Anvil1984]

Curious; how does this work for high value transactions? Presumably you would still need to get authorisation for fares over a certain limit?
Not sure if all TOCs are the same but we have certain limits (varies by card network), which anything over must be swiped and phoned for authorisation.
The authorisation telephone numbers are not TOC specific and are the same for all merchants (outside of the railway too) usually. But for on-train staff usually each depot has its own merchant number to use when phoning through.

Personally I am quite vigilant when dealing with card payments having worked for a card fraud department of a bank prior to joining the railway.
If a card declines due to the wrong PIN then I won't even think about swiping it. If it is not signed, I will ask the passenger for photo ID with their name and signature and then ask them to sign the card before getting an authorisation. If they can't produce this, I won't swipe.
Very few of my colleagues bother to do authorisations at all, preferring TIs or telling passengers to purchase at the gateline. I was very surprised to learn how few actually even knew it was possible let alone how to do it. It was not something we were formally given training on but the procedure is laid out clearly in our manuals.
The few minutes it takes is worth it to save the passenger extra hassle usually. And when it is a passenger knowingly using a card they know will decline, it is worth it for the look on their face when it gets authorised!

All of our cards go through the chip and pin machine regardless of amount, if it comes up DECLINED and we try to swipe the same card then the Avantix realises and won't authorise the swipe either, there are a couple of ways as I say to make the machine "forget" but its definitely not company authorised . We definitely can't key a number in as that facilities been taken off also.
We aren't given merchant numbers (I've seen revenue staff at different TOCs with a phone number and merchant number in the lanyard for this reason but not us) but as the machine won't let you after its declined anyway its a moot point
If a person asks beforehand if I can swipe it instead of Chip and Pin I'll refuse as the passenger knows there's an issue with the card, if its not signed I won't swipe, the only time I will swipe is in case of chip and pin failure and its authorised by control

 

[WillPS]

What if you are given the instruction "call for auth"? (Perhaps these don't occur with offline transactions; a distinct possibility!)

I presume by 'the machine' you mean the Chip & PIN unit rather than the avantix.

 

[Anvil1984]

What if you are given the instruction "call for auth"? (Perhaps these don't occur with offline transactions; a distinct possibility!)

I presume by 'the machine' you mean the Chip & PIN unit rather than the avantix.

"the machine is the Avantix (sorry it was late)

There is no "call for auth" just straight APPROVED or DECLINED. IIRC anything that would come up as "Ring for auth" on a shop chip and pin just comes up as DECLINED on ours

 

[island]

I think voice referrals can't happen in an offline environment because they only arise when the issuer has been contacted through online authorization and has decided it wishes to speak to the retailer or customer to get more details, e.g. if it is an expensive or peculiar purchase.

 

[reb0118]

I think voice referrals can't happen in an offline environment.

To be fair it is normally the automated system we use. Press "3" for standard authorisation. However I do think there is an option for voice referral. On occasion esp. when the signal is breaking up we will be transferred to an actual operator - this also applies when you type the card number (or other detail) incorrectly - easily done when you have large arthritic thumbs .

In my experience when typing in the card number one can not simply delete an incorrect entry (e.g. a double key stroke) one must start the whole number from scratch. If one does this a few times one is put through to an operator.

 

[Be3G]

I note more than one mention in this thread of an immediate suspicion of fraud if the card owner enters the wrong PIN. I'm not a fraudster but I've mistyped my PIN on one or two occasions, normally because I'm trying to type it in quickly to reduce the chance of someone seeing the number I'm typing. I would have thought a second chance to the enter a PIN without making a negative judgement would be in order; presumably, if a fraudster gets it wrong on the first attempt, they probably will on the second too.

 

[Flamingo]

When they say "I don't know / have forgotten my pin, you need to swipe it", it's a bit more suspicious (and common) than somebody getting more & more flustered as they make mistakes, and instantly put's one on guard.

When they are a big bloke and the name on the card is Chloe, it makes one even more suspicious!

 

[northwichcat]

Swiping chip cards is strictly not allowed

If that's the case it's TOC policy not bank policy. Many shops do swipe cards* if the chip and pin won't work.

* Excluding Electron, Solo and Debit cards marked 'Electronic Use Only.'

and the bank can refuse to pay if a chip card is swiped.

The retailer is supposed to have a working chip and pin machine and if the payment is made using chip and pin the retailer is not liable for fraud. If the card is swiped then the retailer is liable for fraud.

 

[AndyW33]

I'm sure it has been discussed before somewhere, but not all the credit and debit cards out there are chip and pin. Quite a few countries are still swipe and have cards that are mostly without chips, most notably the USA. Does this mean some TOCs prevent their staff from selling tickets onboard to Americans unless they have cash? Is this in breach of their merchant agreements with Visa/Mastercard?

 

[island]

If that's the case it's TOC policy not bank policy. Many shops do swipe cards* if the chip and pin won't work.

They shouldn't be doing it either.

The retailer is supposed to have a working chip and pin machine and if the payment is made using chip and pin the retailer is not liable for fraud. If the card is swiped then the retailer is liable for fraud.

The card issuer can raise a chargeback to the merchant against any swiped transaction on a chip and PIN card, irrespective of whether fraud occurred, unless the merchant obtained telephone authorisation for the transaction or certain other limited circumstances apply (e.g. the chip on the card being verifiably faulty). In practice they don't unless there is some particular reason, such as the customer defaulting.

I'm sure it has been discussed before somewhere, but not all the credit and debit cards out there are chip and pin. Quite a few countries are still swipe and have cards that are mostly without chips, most notably the USA. Does this mean some TOCs prevent their staff from selling tickets onboard to Americans unless they have cash? Is this in breach of their merchant agreements with Visa/Mastercard?

No. It is perfectly fine to swipe a non-chip card. I had one but it expired in June and I finally got a chipped replacement. On the other hand, many merchants' staff members don't know about non-chip cards and/or add additional prohibited conditions to the transaction such as asking for photo ID.

 

[sarahj]

In the states where non chip cards are common it is normal practice to ask for ID. When I used my old no chip card somewhere between San fran and LA back in 2000 for petrol,I was aksed. Glad I had my Driving licence to hand.

The prob with phoning for auth is when you have got 2-3 min gaps between stations, plus all this dispatch milarkey, and remember, even been see to be on the phone during this can find you with a meeting with no tea and biscuits with your manager, or worse. You suddenly find its time for the buyers stop, or you have spend all this time on one pass, while many others are standing waiting.

My card machine has only asked for an authorisation once after chip and pin use. That was for a £398.00 ticket. I was glad I had the time between Newhaven and Seaford for that one. Plus when I called, the system was busy and was just told to use a number.

 

[Sacro]

In the states where non chip cards are common it is normal practice to ask for ID.

Off topic but that's not normal and generally prohibited by the merchant agreements.

 

[sarahj]

Off topic but that's not normal and generally prohibited by the merchant agreements.

Someone was asking about cards with no chip. or pin. They are still around. When you use them the machine says Signature Required. More common than you think at places like Gatwick etc...

 

[tony_mac]

Chip and sign cards also exist; some disabilities make it impractical to enter a pin.
But, yes, the machine should say signature required.

 

[island]

Someone was asking about cards with no chip. or pin. They are still around. When you use them the machine says Signature Required. More common than you think at places like Gatwick etc...

Correct, but you said it was common practice to ask for ID, and Sacro correctly pointed out that merchants are not supposed to do this; they are meant to match the signature on the slip to that on the card.

 

[Mojo]

Correct, but you said it was common practice to ask for ID, and Sacro correctly pointed out that merchants are not supposed to do this; they are meant to match the signature on the slip to that on the card.

She also said ''in the States'' where it is common. My most recent visit to California and Nevada had me and my family asked for photo ID pretty much every transaction above $10 or so. I noticed that many cards issued by US banks have a photo of the holder on the back which negated this requirement, but for those that didn't, even locals showed ID (except they never seemed to be asked, always handing over their ID at the same time, presumably because it's so common to be asked).

Oddly enough, they hardly ever checked the signature. Many shops also have electronic signing pads. I don't remember being asked for ID so often in New York.

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm currently in New York and only once have I been asked to show ID, and that was on a $1000 transaction. A few cashiers have checked my signature matches, but most don't even check that. The signature is recorded in an electronic system here in most places though, as you sign with a stylus. For small-value transactions (under $15ish) a lot of places don't even ask for a signature at all. I even used some vending machines where you just insert your card and it charges with no verification of signature or PIN.

I've also noticed that some tills seem to ask the cashier to input the CVV code. I don't know if this is because I have a british card.

 

[island]

She also said ''in the States'' where it is common. My most recent visit to California and Nevada had me and my family asked for photo ID pretty much every transaction above $10 or so. I noticed that many cards issued by US banks have a photo of the holder on the back which negated this requirement, but for those that didn't, even locals showed ID (except they never seemed to be asked, always handing over their ID at the same time, presumably because it's so common to be asked).

It's also against the rules in the US, common or not. But let's not drag things further off-topic

 

[b0b]

I've also noticed that some tills seem to ask the cashier to input the CVV code. I don't know if this is because I have a british card.

my experience is that they're not entering the CVV, but the last 4 digits, many a time they never look at the back of the card when keying in the number. possibly just to be sure theres a card there, or to prevent cloned cards (sorry i know offtopic).

 

[maniacmartin]

my experience is that they're not entering the CVV, but the last 4 digits, many a time they never look at the back of the card when keying in the number. possibly just to be sure theres a card there, or to prevent cloned cards (sorry i know offtopic).

Ah. I just assumed it was the CVV. I suppose it does stop you rewriting the magstripe with someone elses details.

 

[island]

The last four digits of the card number are also reprinted on the back of the card and it is best practice, albeit rare, to check that the last four digits embossed on the front match those printed on the back, to detect counterfeit cards.

*reports own post for being off-topic*

 

[radamfi]

The last four digits of the card number are also reprinted on the back of the card and it is best practice, albeit rare, to check that the last four digits embossed on the front match those printed on the back, to detect counterfeit cards.

*reports own post for being off-topic*

Off-topic but interesting. I have always wondered why those four numbers were duplicated from the front.

 

[Anvil1984]

Mod note: Split from http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=91063

Just as a point Northern conductors cannot swipe after a card is declined, we have a modification on our machines that if a card declines and you try to swipe it it won't allow it. We have unofficial workarounds for it but its been changed for a reason and if it declines then we're in for it. We don't have a authorisation helpline like other TOCs so saying someone from another TOC said he was just being a ..... is not helpful they have their rules, Northern has others.

That being said I do agree that the discount should have been applied on this occasion as Appleby doesnt seem to have any ticket machines even of the card only type

 

[34D]

my experience is that they're not entering the CVV, but the last 4 digits, many a time they never look at the back of the card when keying in the number. possibly just to be sure theres a card there, or to prevent cloned cards (sorry i know offtopic).

10 years ago, I implemented a requirement to type the last four digits into the EPOS system (of a high street retailer) for precisely this reason.

Expanded to the 7 numbers on the sig strip

 

[maniacmartin]

Can anyone shed any light as to what the last 3 digits on the signature strip of an American Express are? They look like a CVV but they are, as the CVV is printed on the front.

 

[island]

10 years ago, I implemented a requirement to type the last four digits into the EPOS system (of a high street retailer) for precisely this reason.

Expanded to the 7 numbers on the sig strip

That's a violation of merchant rules. Can't capture the CVV on a cardholder present transaction.

 

[causton]

That's a violation of merchant rules. Can't capture the CVV on a cardholder present transaction.

Isn't a minimum charge/surcharge for cards also against the rules? But how often do you see that?

 

[island]

Surcharging for card payments has been permitted in the UK since 1991. Don't know about minimum card payment amounts.

 

[PermitToTravel]

10 years ago, I implemented a requirement to type the last four digits into the EPOS system (of a high street retailer) for precisely this reason.

Expanded to the 7 numbers on the sig strip

Were you storing the CVV numbers? hock:hock: