Card inspections SWR

[Mainsideman]

Have been travelling alot on the SWR suburban area recently and have noticed alot more ticket checks using a yellow device to check contactless cards.

A couple of questions I have on this:

1.) If i have not touched in and my card is checked using this device what happens?

2.) If I have not touched in and am checked with this device but then touch out what happens?

3.) I believe these are TFL devices so do TFL get the revenue even though it is an SWR service through SWR stations?

Thank you.

 

[Hadders]

1.) If i have not touched in and my card is checked using this device what happens?

You're charged a failed inspection charge. If this happens twice (I think) then your card is blocked from being used on the TfL contactless system.

2.) If I have not touched in and am checked with this device but then touch out what happens?

Again, you're charged a failed inspection charge, as above, because you haven't touched in.

3.) I believe these are TFL devices so do TFL get the revenue even though it is an SWR service through SWR stations?

I'm not sure. There'll be an agreement between TfL and the TOCs that covers this situation. I suspect it depends on who carries out the inspection.

 

[John R]

I would have thought revenue is attributed based on the journey undertaken (assuming that both touch-in and touch-out have occurred). Unless you are only asking about the scenario of a failed inspection.

But if they are SWR services and employees, maybe it's a simple as SWR just happens to be introducing the same machines, so nothing to do with TfL?

 

[Hadders]

I would have thought revenue is attributed based on the journey undertaken (assuming that both touch-in and touch-out have occurred). Unless you are only asking about the scenario of a failed inspection.

@MikeWh will probably know more on this than me.

If there's a touch in at an SWR station followed by a touch out at a London Underground station then there will be an agreed formula that divides the revenue.

If there's no touch in (but passenger boards a SWR service) and touches out at a London Underground station then the system won't know what the journey was so an incomplete journey charge is made. I'm pretty certain this charge would go to London Underground (or the operator of the station where the touch out happened if it wasn't London Underground) because the system wouldn't know what the journey was and who else the charge needs to be shared with.

If there's no touch in, a failed revenue inspection and a touch out then a failed inspection charge is made.

Note also that with contactless the inspector doesn't know if you've touched in or not. The reconciliation of touch ins and revenue inspections is done overnight in the back office.
Also note that incomplete journey charges and failed revenue inspection charges do not count towards daily/weekly caps. For clarity with Oyster the inspector can see if you've touched in.

 

[OscarH]

But if they are SWR services and employees, maybe it's a simple as SWR just happens to be introducing the same machines, so nothing to do with TfL?

I believe the machines have to be issued by TfL to the operators, because the PAYG backoffice is theirs/their suppliers, and there's no way for anyone else to interact with it with their own device

 

[Starmill]

If your card is banned or invalid it will be rejected by the terminal. If you intend to use Oyster / CPAY you must touch in before boarding.

As it happens TfGM reckon they can develop a system that instantly validates these touch ins for use on trains in Manchester. I don't think it's at all likely that they can with no holes but it isn't how TfL do it.

 

[John R]

I believe the machines have to be issued by TfL to the operators, because the PAYG backoffice is theirs/their suppliers, and there's no way for anyone else to interact with it with their own device

That makes sense. Though it raises an interesting point that as the PAYG area expands, more and more revenue of the National Rail network in the SE will be processed by TfL. Still, better than processed by Trainline with their margin I guess!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

You're charged a failed inspection charge.

How much is that, by the way?

 

[Haywain]

more and more revenue of the National Rail network in the SE will be processed by TfL.

I don't think who processes it is terribly important, because it doesn't mean that they keep it.

 

[John R]

I don't think who processes it is terribly important, because it doesn't mean that they keep it.

No, I get that. I was just thinking that in recent times the relationship between DfT and TfL has been, how shall I say, rather mixed, due to political pressure. Having TfL control the processing of a big slice of DfTs fare box could slightly shift the dynamic of what has seen to be a fairly one sided relationship.

 

[Hadders]

No, I get that. I was just thinking that in recent times the relationship between DfT and TfL has been, how shall I say, rather mixed, due to political pressure. Having TfL control the processing of a big slice of DfTs fare box could slightly shift the dynamic of what has seen to be a fairly one sided relationship.

ISTR there was a tender to extend PAYG to what we now know as Project Oval. It was won by TfL.

Someone will correct me if I've mis-remembered but there'll be a thread on here about it somewhere.

 

[cool110]

As it happens TfGM reckon they can develop a system that instantly validates these touch ins for use on trains in Manchester. I don't think it's at all likely that they can with no holes but it isn't how TfL do it.

The Dutch have already proven that it works on a much larger scale, so TfGM should be able to follow suit. TfL have gotten suck with batch only processing thanks to being an early mover and going down the wrong path.

 

[JonathanH]

ISTR there was a tender to extend PAYG to what we now know as Project Oval. It was won by TfL.

Someone will correct me if I've mis-remembered but there'll be a thread on here about it somewhere.

Yes, first post in this thread talks about TfL winning the tender, but I think the discussion at the time and before would suggest that no one else could have realistically won it - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-coming-to-contactless-payment-cards.231684/

The predecessor thread was https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/possible-end-to-paper-tickets-in-south-east.223610/

 

[Bungle965]

The Dutch have already proven that it works on a much larger scale

Does NS do immediate or deferred validation? Cubic do appear to be able to support immediate as seen in New York with MTA Omny

 

[Sonic1234]

Does TfL make anything when you use Oyster/Contactless on National Rail services? Do they get 5% as the "retailer" of the ticket?

 

[Horizon22]

Does TfL make anything when you use Oyster/Contactless on National Rail services? Do they get 5% as the "retailer" of the ticket?

I can't imagine they would for Contactless. Oyster maybe, although the fixed fee for the card might be the "retail".

 

[island]

You're charged a failed inspection charge. If this happens twice (I think) then your card is blocked from being used on the TfL contactless system.

Yes, that's my understanding. If your card gets blocked this way you can get it unblocked by calling TfL and explaining yourself, but one more failed inspection will result in a permanent block.

How much is that, by the way?

£16.30 according to this recent FOI.