Perhaps for passengers in this situation it would be prudent to check the official documentation and website each time to make sure your intended method of payment is indeed valid. By actively checking before using one's preferred method of payment I fail to see how this can be regarded as fraud if the method which was promised to be accepted cannot be, especially if the method being presented is actively encouraged by the railway industry itself (it is their stipulation after all).
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Card declines on train
- Thread starter Scotuser12
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Perhaps for passengers in this situation it would be prudent to check the official documentation and website each time to make sure your intended method of payment is indeed valid. By actively checking before using one's preferred method of payment I fail to see how this can be regarded as fraud if the method which was promised to be accepted cannot be, especially if the method being presented is actively encouraged by the railway industry itself (it is their stipulation after all).
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R
RailUK Forums
You don't have anything to worry about if you buy a season ticket, carry cash or buy your ticket before boarding.
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If the passenger is told "That card won't work on the train" (which I have heard a Scotrail guard tell a passenger), but the passenger repeatedly continues to offer it then I don't see how it could be anything other than fraud.
It's no different than writing a cheque that you know won't be honoured.
Scotuser12
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Yes I understand that. But, I am still paying for the ticket after in the online machine at the station. I've never been intending not to pay...
DaleCooper
Established Member
I struggle to understand why someone would go through this rigmarole on a regular basis when there are so many simple ways to avoid it...unless perhaps it is occasionally somehow to their advantage.
Corroboration does not necessarily require two witnesses. Forensic or other physical evidence may also be accepted. There is also the "Moorov" principle - although this normally applies to sexual offences where by their very nature corroboration is hard to obtain - this principle means that a number of offences witnessed by only one person can be grouped together to show a pattern of behaviour and then could be used in a court case.
NB as ScotRail has accepted your fares, albeit late, you will NOT be reported for prosecution.
NB as you have paid your fares, albeit late, you will NOT be going to gaol.
NB as John Dalrymple of Stair is no longer Lord Advocate the Redcoats will NOT be descending on your place of abode - penalties for lateness were slightly more severe in the late seventeenth centuary.
Since it is impossible to determine the content of your mind, intent is determined by your actions. At the point where you offer a card that you have been told won't work you have demonstrated an intent to defraud.
At that point there is no way to know if you will pay the fare due, or disappear never to be seen again.
Scotuser12
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Everytime it has happened I have given them my name, address and contact number
DaleCooper
Established Member
Of course, what else could you do apart from give false information?
Scotuser12
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I said it in response to the fact he said I could run away never to be seen again. My concern is that I will be prosecuted. I'm not looking for sympathy just opinions on if you think I could be..
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You could be but you probably won't be. However you should stop doing it now in order to avoid that risk increasing.
As I and others have said - today, as things stand, you are not at risk of prosecution. If you were to do this again tomorrow or any time in the future, you could be.
You can only poke a bear so many times before you don't have a hand to poke it with.
Agreed. But may not be practical for everyone
I disagree. A card not returning an auth on a train one day is not necessarily indicative of future results. There are floor limits, possible changes of online/offline, changes to toc procedure (such as interpreting a 'refer' correctly), changes to toc equipment on train...
You have to pay for a train journey before using it (we all know the exceptions which are not relevant in this case) and to knowingly walk past an open ticket office and TVMs knowing your card won't work on the train means you are not coming with the rules, the fact there is a rule which allows you to pay afterwards is for the occasional issue, yours isn't an occasional issue it is intentional on your part so there is the intent.
Why don't you carry cash for the times you are running late?
Why don't you carry cash for the times you are running late?
Agreed for a one-off. However, the situation I'm talking about is when passenger is told "This card won't work on our machines on the train. It'll work in the station though." as I have heard a guard tell someone.
Having been told in unambiguous terms that it will never work on the train it wouldn't be hard to make the case that continued attempts to present it - in the foreknowledge that it will decline - is an attempt to obtain services by deception: "I'll jump on the train without a ticket, if the guard doesn't get to me: win! If he does then I'll just give him this card that won't work and deal with it later (if I can be bothered)."
The OP has their answer. They are most likely not at risk of prosecution or further penalties for what they've done so far.
However I would strongly advise them to change their behaviour going forward as at some stage they will most likely end up in some considerable trouble for what they are doing. If you are travelling regularly consider a season ticket. In any event I would strongly advise that, as long as you have a card which is known not work with the on-board card machine, you ensure you leave enough time to purchase a ticket before travel or carry cash sufficient to buy a ticket.
However I would strongly advise them to change their behaviour going forward as at some stage they will most likely end up in some considerable trouble for what they are doing. If you are travelling regularly consider a season ticket. In any event I would strongly advise that, as long as you have a card which is known not work with the on-board card machine, you ensure you leave enough time to purchase a ticket before travel or carry cash sufficient to buy a ticket.
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