Card declines on train

[Scotuser12]

Hi there

I regularly commute by train in Scotland to and from work. I recently changed bank accounts and due to the new type of account I have my debit card does not work on a moving train, as the conductor's payment machine cannot check the balance offline.

I normally buy my ticket before boarding the train however several times (around 20 times over past few months) when I'm rushing I've got on the train and attempted to pay with some of my debit cards which have been declined. The conductor has then filled out a form with my details and said the fare has to be paid within 7 days. I have paid all of the fares I've been declined on. One or two of the slips got lost in amongst paperwork in my bag so I stupidly did pay a couple of the tickets late by a week. I'm now making sure I always buy my ticket before boarding. Its been stupidity on my part not doing so.

My concern is because last week I had a few of the slips to pay so I took them to the booking office in the station and the gentleman behind the cash desk was very abrupt and said "you've been here before" and "the fraud and security department are aware of you".

So I've been very concerned ever since and sick with sorry that I'm in some kind of trouble. I have paid all of the slips albeit some late. I've emailed the railway company's fraud manager (no response yet) and I also spoke to the manager at the station who said I was not in trouble. But could he know for sure?

Is this something I could be in trouble for? I'm very worried.

 

[causton]

You say you sometimes buy tickets before boarding. I assume you always travel from the same station and this has a ticket office or a ticket machine that sells the ticket you want. If this is correct, you are technically committing an offence by getting on the train without a ticket, queue or no queue, rush or no rush.

This may be why they were abrupt with you, as some people get on the train and abuse these cards which they cannot use on the train, knowing they will decline and hope the guard will not bother to sell them a ticket and they can get a free ride.

I would ask your bank if they can give you a card that has offline authorisation to work on a train, but more importantly if there is a ticket office or machine that is working/open, you must buy a ticket before you travel to risk a penalty or at the worst case, a date in court!

 

[me123]

Hi there

I regularly commute by train in Scotland to and from work. I recently changed bank accounts and due to the new type of account I have my debit card does not work on a moving train, as the conductor's payment machine cannot check the balance offline.

I normally buy my ticket before boarding the train however several times (around 20 times over past few months) when I'm rushing I've got on the train and attempted to pay with some of my debit cards which have been declined. The conductor has then filled out a form with my details and said the fare has to be paid within 7 days. I have paid all of the fares I've been declined on. One or two of the slips got lost in amongst paperwork in my bag so I stupidly did pay a couple of the tickets late by a week. I'm now making sure I always buy my ticket before boarding. Its been stupidity on my part not doing so.

My concern is because last week I had a few of the slips to pay so I took them to the booking office in the station and the gentleman behind the cash desk was very abrupt and said "you've been here before" and "the fraud and security department are aware of you".

So I've been very concerned ever since and sick with sorry that I'm in some kind of trouble. I have paid all of the slips albeit some late. I've emailed the railway company's fraud manager (no response yet) and I also spoke to the manager at the station who said I was not in trouble. But could he know for sure?

Is this something I could be in trouble for? I'm very worried.

That fact that you've paid all your fares means that Scotrail have no reason or grounds to take further action at the moment. You've shown intent to pay with (what I presume is) a valid and accepted card and have demonstrated that you have paid your fares in full subsequently.

The fraud and security dept are probably "aware" insomuch as you've had multiple notices. However, if you've got no outstanding debts, they have no reason to take action. That said, if you know your card is not going to work on the train, you should consider either paying at the ticket office (arriving early to do so) or carrying enough cash to cover your fare on the train. If you're traveling daily, why not consider a season ticket?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You say you sometimes buy tickets before boarding. I assume you always travel from the same station and this has a ticket office or a ticket machine that sells the ticket you want. If this is correct, you are technically committing an offence by getting on the train without a ticket, queue or no queue, rush or no rush.

True, but in reality in Scotland you are permitted to purchase an anytime fare onboard the train (although you're not entitled to any discounts), even when the ticket office is open. It happens all the time and I've never seen a guard/TI even question it.

 

[causton]

True, but in reality in Scotland you are permitted to purchase an anytime fare onboard the train (although you're not entitled to any discounts), even when the ticket office is open. It happens all the time and I've never seen a guard/TI even question it.

The same happens down here too, people do it all the time and don't realise, but if they met an RPI on the train they could get a Penalty Fare or worst.

They got rid of all of our RPIs on trains a couple of years back though... except on one or two lines which were recently brought in...

 

[Scotuser12]

Thanks both for your advice. Yes I'm never going to board again without a ticket I agree with you 'me123' you can buy the ticket on the train in Scotland. I reckon 50 percent of the travellers do as I see it daily. I've just got myself so worked up that I could be prosecuted because my card has been repeatedly declined even though I've paid them all.

Thanks both for your advice. Yes I agree 'me 123' you can buy your ticket on the train in Scotland and I reckon 50 percent of travellers do in Scotland as I see it daily on the train. I've just got myself so worked up that I'm in trouble and will be prosecuted because my card was declined repeatedly, but I have paid them all so hopefully is ok.

That fact that you've paid all your fares means that Scotrail have no reason or grounds to take further action at the moment. You've shown intent to pay with (what I presume is) a valid and accepted card and have demonstrated that you have paid your fares in full subsequently.

The fraud and security dept are probably "aware" insomuch as you've had multiple notices. However, if you've got no outstanding debts, they have no reason to take action. That said, if you know your card is not going to work on the train, you should consider either paying at the ticket office (arriving early to do so) or carrying enough cash to cover your fare on the train. If you're traveling daily, why not consider a season ticket?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


True, but in reality in Scotland you are permitted to purchase an anytime fare onboard the train (although you're not entitled to any discounts), even when the ticket office is open. It happens all the time and I've never seen a guard/TI even question it.

Thank you both for your advice. Yes I agree in Scotland you can buy your ticket on the train and I reckon fifty percent of travellers do as I see it daily on the train. I've just worked myself up so much that because my card has been declined repeatedly that I'm in trouble and will be prosecuted. But I have paid them all so hopefully its ok.

 

[najaB]

Is this something I could be in trouble for? I'm very worried.

To echo other members - you have paid the fare due so you aren't in trouble. However, be aware that repeatedly offering a card that you know will be declined could be seen as attempting to fraudulently obtain services - while it is harder to bring a private prosecution in Scotland it isn't impossible.

 

[Scotuser12]

I understand that however if I'm giving.my details to them.and then paying the fare then I'm still intending to pay with a valid card. I have repeatedly done it I know but I've always paid

 

[455driver]

Here is a rather 'far out' idea, try carrying enough money with you for your fare so if you are running late you can still buy a ticket from the Conductor!

This is a problem between you and your bank and it is up to you to sort it.

If you regularly try to use an invalid card (if it is online only then it is classed as an invalid card) then ScotRail would be able to build a case against you and the first time they find you haven't paid they could take you straight to Court.

 

[ainsworth74]

If you regularly try to use an invalid card (if it is online only then it is classed as an invalid card) then ScotRail would be able to build a case against you and the first time they find you haven't paid they could take you straight to Court.

Scots law might make that quite difficult.

 

[455driver]

Scots law might make that quite difficult.

Even Scots law would view the fact he routinely offers an invalid card as 'odd', plus the fact he is fully aware that it will decline and still insists on using it!

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm not saying it wouldn't but it seems to be very much harder to bring about prosecutions in Scotland than England/Wales. I'm not an expert so perhaps one of Scottish members would like to comment?

 

[455driver]

I'm not an expert so perhaps one of Scottish members would like to comment?

You are probably a lot closer to being one than I will ever be!

 

[Scotuser12]

Do you think I could go to jail for it?!

 

[najaB]

Scots law might make that quite difficult.

One of the main reasons that prosecutions are more difficult in Scotland is the requirement for corroboration - two witnesses to the offence. If Scotrail really want to they just need to have a second staff member around to record the OP's actions. If they are able to provide this evidence then the Procurator Fiscal may agree to bring charges.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you think I could go to jail for it?!

At this stage, no.

 

[Scotuser12]

Ok. Do you think if I never do it again I'll be ok? Does anyone have the contact details of the prosecution office at scotrail?

 

[Carntyne]

They'll be on the TI form you received.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this something I could be in trouble for? I'm very worried.

It sounds to me like you are unlikely to be pulled up this time, but their patience will at some point run out if they are keeping track, and if it does you'll find yourself at the thick end of a prosecution. I would if I were you ensure you ALWAYS make time to buy before you board in future and do not attempt to pay on board having walked past an open ticket office/TVM again, even if this will cause you to miss your train.

 

[najaB]

Ok. Do you think if I never do it again I'll be ok?

Yes. You have nothing to worry about.

 

[Alex C.]

I'm not saying it wouldn't but it seems to be very much harder to bring about prosecutions in Scotland than England/Wales. I'm not an expert so perhaps one of Scottish members would like to comment?

The last private prosecution (the method TOCs use to bring fare evaders to court) in Scotland was in 1982, and before than 1909. It is therefore practically impossible you would currently get prosecuted for fare evasion in Scotland in the way you can be in England - although if there was fraud involved, the police would most likely bring a public prosecution.

That wouldn't prevent a civil case though - similar to the civil recovery schemes operated by some supermarkets - but they would have a lower chance of success and damages would be limited to actual costs incurred.

 

[34D]

If you regularly try to use an invalid card (if it is online only then it is classed as an invalid card)

I don't agree with this bit. The card is fully valid at the ticket office. It isn't the op's fault that scotrail are still using 1990s equipment.

If his bank decide to flick the switch it will once again work offline.

OP: ask for a contactless card. Say you'll switch banks if they don't.

 

[Agent_c]

Also you need to bear in mind that Scotrail is unique in that they cannot prosecute a criminal case, as "private prosecutions" are almost unheard of. They would either need to convince a procurator fiscal to do it, or they'd only be left with the civil route.

 

[Carntyne]

I don't agree with this bit. The card is fully valid at the ticket office. It isn't the op's fault that scotrail are still using 1990s equipment.

If his bank decide to flick the switch it will once again work offline.

OP: ask for a contactless card. Say you'll switch banks if they don't.

Avantix replacement due in next few months, at last.

I'd say if you're fully aware that your card doesn't work on train, you need to buy before getting on without exception.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Also you need to bear in mind that Scotrail is unique in that they cannot prosecute a criminal case, as "private prosecutions" are almost unheard of. They would either need to convince a procurator fiscal to do it, or they'd only be left with the civil route.

It isn't that 'private' prosecutions are not possible in Scotland, but the Court system & process means it isn't as straightforward as it is in England & Wales and that makes it extremely difficult and therefore very unlikely. We've had some involvement with, BTP, MoJ & others in discussions surrounding this subject as some English based TOCs have always had cross-border services on which offences may be detected.

( If in the future the Scottish system finds a way to adopt the SJP the current position might and only might, change, but I suggest we shouldn't hold our collective breath. )

The actual legislation likely to be used in such a case (RoRA) is the same across the land and therefore the usual precedent quoted in 'payment only if asked' allegations (Corbyn) is just as relevant.

In this case the OP certainly isn't 'in trouble', although I can see why the apparently frequent occurrence of not holding a ticket, which has triggered repeated deferred payment notices, would have been flagged up with their RP dept.

I wouldn't take the word of a local station manager / supervisor unless you are absolutely certain that person has spoken to the prosecution / fraud manager about any specific case, but having paid all the outstanding fares there is clearly no issue in your case and I guess that's what he meant.

As others have said, either purchasing a weekly or season ticket if practical and economic, or carrying sufficient cash to pay the fare on the spot will eradicate any future difficulty.

 

[najaB]

I don't agree with this bit. The card is fully valid at the ticket office. It isn't the op's fault that scotrail are still using 1990s equipment.

Regardless of this, the OP knows that the card will decline so should not try to use it to buy on board. Repeatedly doing so could result in a fraud prosecution.

Even at a ticket office there's no guarantee that payment by card will be successful, the difference being that the passenger hasn't already obtained service and can walk away.

 

[crehld]

One of the main reasons that prosecutions are more difficult in Scotland is the requirement for corroboration - two witnesses to the offence. If Scotrail really want to they just need to have a second staff member around to record the OP's actions. If they are able to provide this evidence then the Procurator Fiscal may agree to bring charges.

Is it not also that private prosecutions are not usually permitted in Scotland?

If you regularly try to use an invalid card (if it is online only then it is classed as an invalid card) then ScotRail would be able to build a case against you and the first time they find you haven't paid they could take you straight to Court.

For the purpose of clarity I feel it is necessary to point out the National Rail website outlines what is class as valid methods of payment. No mention is made of online / offline cards. It only has this to say on the matter:

The following are accepted as methods of payments at National Rail stations and retail outlets. They also apply to paying on-train when no opportunity to purchase beforehand existed.

...

Credit/Debit/Charge Cards
All National Rail train companies accept the major cards such as Visa, Visa Delta, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex. Some train companies also accept Diners Club International, Solo and Electron

Long and short of it is if it says Visa on the card it's a valid form of payment, including on trains, regardless of being online or not (notwithstanding the requirement to pay before boarding where facilities are available). Any suggestion validity is determined by whether the card is online/offline is clearly false.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm not saying it wouldn't but it seems to be very much harder to bring about prosecutions in Scotland than England/Wales.

The last private prosecution (the method TOCs use to bring fare evaders to court) in Scotland was in 1982, and before than 1909. It is therefore practically impossible you would currently get prosecuted for fare evasion in Scotland in the way you can be in England - although if there was fraud involved, the police would most likely bring a public prosecution..

The most recent prosecution for simple fare evasion that I'm aware of is Gerber v British Railways Board (1961) where Lord Justices Clyde, Guthrie & Migdale found that “in the absence of corroboration of the ticket inspector’s evidence, there was insufficient evidence to warrant conviction”. This followed British Railways Board v Dick (1965) where passenger David Dick was accused on the evidence of only one Witness. The Sheriff had granted Dick an absolute discharge following the general rule requiring two or more credible witnesses. The B.R.B. Appealled to the Glasgow Sheriff Court where Sheriff-Substitute Bayne found that the sufficiency of a single witness was a statutory exception to the general rule as stated in S.137 of the 1845 RCC(S)A (that Section provides that proof of an offence may be "upon the oath of one credible witness or more"), and the passenger Dick was convicted under S.96 of that Act.
The B.R.B. had hoped to rely on that success in Gerber, but sadly failed, and I'm not aware of another attempt since then (despite S.137 of the 1845 Act still being in force).

One of the main reasons that prosecutions are more difficult in Scotland is the requirement for corroboration - two witnesses to the offence.

Yes. The other crucial reason is the high standard of the 'public interest' test. The Scottish Sheriff Courts set a high threshold of 'public interest' which which must be satisfied before an offence is accepted for listing; a one-off low-value rail fare would fail to satisfy that test.

The recent review of the Scottish requirement for corroboration was very thoroughly discussed in the 2012 Carloway Report and many observers felt that the test would be relaxed, but the Government decided not to lower the standard of corroboration required.

It isn't that 'private' prosecutions are not possible in Scotland, but the Court system & process means it isn't as straightforward as it is in England & Wales and that makes it extremely difficult and therefore very unlikely. . . .

. . .
The actual legislation likely to be used in such a case (RoRA) is the same across the land and therefore the usual precedent quoted in 'payment only if asked' allegations (Corbyn) is just as relevant.

I don't expect the decision to relax the standard of corroboration to be reviewed again anytime soon (despite the expectations that the Carloway Report would have led to exactly that shift in procedure). As for the standard of the public interest test, I see a little more hope for a bullish challenge to the Courts' resistance in the future, but that would inevitably be balanced with the decreasing resources available to the Courts (in Scotland just as in England) and the pressure that places on any relaxation of the interpretation of long-standing guidance.

. . . . and if it does you'll find yourself at the thick end of a prosecution.

No. For the reasons given above.

. . . as some English based TOCs have always had cross-border services on which offences may be detected.

As you will be aware, there is scope for the jurisdiction of cross-border offences to be established in E&W, but which would not be available to offences committed wholly within Scotland.

( If in the future the Scottish system finds a way to adopt the SJP the current position might and only might, change, but I suggest we shouldn't hold our collective breath. )

It appears to me that thre are many challenges to be overcome before the Single Justice Procedure might be an available resolution to Scottish offences. There is a raft of supplimentary legislation which would have to be amended (such as the Rehabilitation of Offenders (Scotland) Act, extending the scope of the 2003 Criminal Justice Act, a mechanism to void the duties of Sheriff Courts in S.15 & 16 of the 1971 Sheriff Courts Scotland Act akin to the way the 2015 Criminal Justice and Courts Act amended S.11 to 16 of the Magistrates Court Act in E&W; new arrangements for sentencing in Scotland under the S.J.P.). Its a big job! Breath not being held.

But none of the above has any bearing on the potential for Civil proceedings to recover a fare and any costs necessarily incurred.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Do the BTP in Scotland not prosecute for fare evasion?

 

[najaB]

Is it not also that private prosecutions are not usually permitted in Scotland?

Which is why the sentence said that the evidence would be passed to the Procurator Fiscal for them to bring the prosecution.

Long and short of it is if it says Visa on the card it's a valid form of payment, including on trains, regardless of bring online or not (notwithstanding the requirement to pay before boarding where facilities are available). Any suggestion validity is determined by whether the card is online/offline is clearly false.

We have had this discussion before, the key thing to bear in mind is that a credit/debit card is not a form of payment* in itself. It is a token that allows you to access funds from your credit/current account. Even in a ticket office a card payment may decline even though you have sufficient funds available.

I agree that a passenger shouldn't be expected to know the difference between online and offline cards, so I couldn't conscience the idea of penalising them for a first occurrence of the card being declined on the train. However repeatedly offering a card that they know will decline is fraud.

*Please do not mention 'legal tender'!

 

[SWTCommuter]

I regularly commute by train

If you travel three or more days per week, it would probably be cheaper to buy a season ticket and it would certainly be more convenient.

 

[Scotuser12]

I understand why it could be perceived as fraud however if I'm giving over my contact details and then paying the fare within the 7 days surely it's not fraud as I'm still paying for the ticket? I've been stupid I know but I have paid for them and have always been honest!