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Card declined. Why?

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londonbridge

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My debit card is due to expire at the end of March. Yesterday I made some bus journeys before finding the replacement card in the mail. I have linked the new card to my TFL account. This morning I’ve had an email saying my card has been declined for yesterdays travel. Since I haven’t yet made any transactions with the new one, the old one should still be active, so why was it declined?
 
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Class800

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Declined after time of payment as opposed to at the time of payment is quite unusual from my experience - I've never had that with any business. Do we have anyone with banking systems expertise?
 

Haywain

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I think the bank disable the old card as soon as the new one is used.
 

Class800

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I think the bank disable the old card as soon as the new one is used.
But from the OP's account, it seems that the old card was used before the new card. And the question is why was the card initially accepted at the TFL gateline (as opposed to card declined) and then later declined?
 

londonbridge

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I think the bank disable the old card as soon as the new one is used.
But that’s the thing, I haven’t used the new card for anything yet. I went out, using the old one, and found the new one had arrived when I got home. I didn’t go out anymore, all I did was add the new card to my account but left the old one in place, with the intention of removing it once payment for yesterday had cleared.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Does the TfL system actually take payment in real time, or is the information stored and processed later, maybe as part of some multiple bus journey fare capping process, by which time the old debit card would have been deactivated/de-linked to your TfL account, causing the payment mismatch?
 

robbeech

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It’s entirely possible that the new card is a red herring, although as others say it’s odd for it to accept at the gateline and then decline later.

My general day to day credit card has recently started asking for a pin every 3 or 4 transactions making it incredibly annoying, but as far as I know for stuff like tfl bus journeys if the card is at a point where it needs a pin it just declines there and then.
 

Haywain

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Does the TfL system actually take payment in real time, or is the information stored and processed later, maybe as part of some multiple bus journey fare capping process, by which time the old debit card would have been deactivated/de-linked to your TfL account, causing the payment mismatch?
Contactless payment is taken by TfL overnight which is why it appears as a single transaction each day. I suspect that applying a new card to an account will lead to TfL seeking an authorisation against that card immediately (to confirm it is valid) which a bank would see as the card being used.
 

Ken H

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CRedit card transactions are frequently done in 2 stages. First authorisation where the funds are 'baggied' in your account. Later a claim when the actual funds are transferred. I guess the OP changed to the new card (new expiry date, maybe new 16 digit number) between those 2 stages.
Or maybe TfL store the CC details in a secure vault and the card became invalid between the storage and the details being used.
Change of card at expiry can be a nightmare online.
 

Hadders

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My general day to day credit card has recently started asking for a pin every 3 or 4 transactions making it incredibly annoying, but as far as I know for stuff like tfl bus journeys if the card is at a point where it needs a pin it just declines there and then.
That's an anti-fraud measure which has always been in place with contactless. With the contactless limit increasing to £100 it means fewer routine chip and pin transactions are being made (which previously would've confirmed the pin without you even realising). The consequence of this is that customers are having to confirm their pin more often.

PIN numbers aren't required when transit mode is being used so it won't be this. Perhaps @MikeWh knows more about what happened to the OP.
 

zero

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Does adding a new card to the TfL account cause the details to be validated - thus disabling the old card?
 

Killingworth

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Contactless payment is taken by TfL overnight which is why it appears as a single transaction each day. I suspect that applying a new card to an account will lead to TfL seeking an authorisation against that card immediately (to confirm it is valid) which a bank would see as the card being used.
I believe that is the correct answer and the issue is effectively TfL's systems. An unusual timing of actions has had the result described. Just need to pay again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

My general day to day credit card has recently started asking for a pin every 3 or 4 transactions making it incredibly annoying, but as far as I know for stuff like tfl bus journeys if the card is at a point where it needs a pin it just declines there and then.
It is not at set intervals like 3 or 4. Clearly if we all knew how often and why so would criminals. It's a combination of numbers of transactions, amounts, nature of transactions and where. You could possibly go a dozen transactions without needing a PIN.
 
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Mcr Warrior

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So @londonbridge would be advised to contact TfL in order to now pay for the journeys for which debiting the (old) card was declined when (end-of-day) payment was unsuccessfully attempted to be taken?
 

londonbridge

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Looks like I don’t need to, I’ve just checked my account in my banking app and the £4.65 has been debited so the issue has resolved itself.

Edit: I’ve now been out and made a chip and pin transaction with the new card to activate contactless on it, so that should work next time I travel now.
 
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blakey1152

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Just out of interest. Was the card in question a NatWest card? An issue I have been subjected to is if TfL try to take their money during the same time that NatWest does its daily updates in the early hours of the morning then payment will automatically be declined.
 

MotCO

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I've had a new NatWest debit card (unsolicitated, my card had not expired), and the old card stopped working before I even used the new one. The letter accompanying the new card referred to suspected fraudulent activity on my old card (not that I have noticed), so maybe they cancelled it automatically, and this maybe what happened to the OP.
 

londonbridge

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If your card is replaced because the bank believe your account is at risk of being, or has been, compromised, then yes, the old one will be automatically cancelled regardless of its expiry date. I had that happen with my MBNA credit card a few years back. But that’s not what happened here. If, however, it’s replaced because it’s due to expire then the old one should continue to work until you make a transaction with the new one, after which the old one will no longer work. Obviously something in the process of registering the new one on my TFL account caused the bank to decline the old one when TFL tried to claim against it.
 

MikeWh

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Perhaps @MikeWh knows more about what happened to the OP.
Looks like the forum hive mind has got the answer.

I'd be interested to know if TfL can confirm whether they tried the new card to get the money, and whether sending the email saying it was declined was an error. It looks like the sort of thing that could catch several people out.

Also, just to clarify and confirm, Contactless PAYG in London will never ask for a PIN.
 

Trackman

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I've had a new NatWest debit card (unsolicitated, my card had not expired), and the old card stopped working before I even used the new one. The letter accompanying the new card referred to suspected fraudulent activity on my old card (not that I have noticed), so maybe they cancelled it automatically, and this maybe what happened to the OP.
Happened to me with my bank.
Card cancelled (which I didn't know) and a new one sent out using 'incognito mail' - I remember when it arrived looking at it wondering what on earth it was, plus there was no way you would know/feel there was a bank card inside.
It was something on their end, not mine- plus as a precaution I had to do additional security checks for ages if I paid for something that wasn't on my 'safe list'.
 

vinnym70

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New cards can exhibit weird behaviour. Your bank will normally cover this in the covering letter saying your first transaction is likely to need a PIN but that assumes your first transaction is on a standard terminal (which I'd call a PDQ terminal - contactless plus either a stripe reader or slot to insert your card plus numeric keypad to confirm you PIN)

If your first interaction with a new card isn't on one of these terminals (and why should it be) you might have issues.

That said, my last new bank card worked fine contactless for a while then magically needed to have a PIN number provided 3 or 4 transactions down the line. That was a surprise as my bank had binned off Visa in favour of MasterCard so it wasn't just a simple like-for-like replacement which made me think a PIN authentication would have been needed on transaction 1 to prove the card had been delivered to the right person.
 

londonbridge

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My understanding is that when you receive a new card your first transaction must be chip and pin before contactless will work.
 

ffm

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My understanding is that when you receive a new card your first transaction must be chip and pin before contactless will work.
Yes that's correct, though app payments like Google, Android and Apple pay simply work anyway as they are more secure
 
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