Card declined (Northern )

[railuser222]

Hi,

I just got off the train, my card was declined (as usual) but this ticket inspector refused to swipe, he said that this was the 3rd card in a row this morning and I shouldn't worry about it, anyway me being me and having a conscience I went straight to the ticket office in Nottingham and baught the return for the same price. I won't get in trouble for this can I? I heard stories of rail operators checking cameras and tracking down offenders, it was completely unintentional and paid the fare at the office in Nottingham, unlike the others opposite me who walked straight into the city without paying.

Sorry if in being stupid, just my conscience running wild haha

 

[yorkie]

Hi,

I just got off the train, my card was declined (as usual)

Can you confirm you board at a station where there is no facility to purchase your ticket? (ie. there is no open ticket office, and no TVM will sell the ticket you require using your chosen method of payment)

When you say "as usual", do you have any idea why that may be? Could it be an online only card? Does it ever work on trains? If it's an online only card, I would advise getting this changed. Contact your bank.

but this ticket inspector refused to swipe

That's correct, swiping shouldn't really be done, though Company policy may vary.

he said that this was the 3rd card in a row this morning and I shouldn't worry about it

In that case there should be nothing to worry about (at least on this occasion).

anyway me being me and having a conscience I went straight to the ticket office in Nottingham and baught the return for the same price. I won't get in trouble for this can I? I heard stories of rail operators checking cameras and tracking down offenders, it was completely unintentional and paid the fare at the office in Nottingham, unlike the others opposite me who walked straight into the city without paying.

Sorry if in being stupid, just my conscience running wild haha

That should be fine, however if your details were taken (were they?) then you may receive an Unpaid Fare Notice, in which case you would need to send them a copy/scan of the ticket you bought.

I recall a case here where a passenger had no opportunity to pay a fare at all (no ticket office at origin or destination), was sent an Unpaid Fare Notice for a single. He had bought a single to get back that evening, so didn't pay the UFN in full, only the difference. In your case the difference would be zero as you bought a return.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know if it's the same as TVMs but Post Office Mastercards which should work offline always seem to fail in the Northern Parkeon TVMs and neither Northern or the Post Office are able to explain why. They always seem to work fine elsewhere except for the usual contactless not working but it goes through if you enter the PIN.

 

[bradders1983]

Some people on here worry far too much. Clearly there was an issue with his machine, why would they be watching CCTV to see where people went after getting off a train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Certain Co-op Bank credit and debit cards always used to fail in SBB TVMs for some reason nobody was ever able to explain. They would freeze the PIN terminal, and as the ones used are more like cashpoints and consume the card rather than you having the option to remove it manually and end the transaction, it meant standing there looking like a twit for a good 2 minutes or so with a queue building until it gave up and spat it out.

The latest issue of the cards does not suffer the issue.

 

[185]

Specifically, Northern Rail (plus STM / G4S) seem to have major problems with their Avantix machines accepting 70%-80% of cards. Seen one situation at Stockport some years ago get heated where a frustrated passenger, told his card 'must have no money on it' stormed through their check and bought a ticket from the TVM ten feet away - where his card worked fine.

It's a stupid situation where valid payment declines inexplicably, putting frontline staff unnecessarily in a position of conflict.

 

[sheff1]

Specifically, Northern Rail (plus STM / G4S) seem to have major problems with their Avantix machines accepting 70%-80% of cards. Seen one situation at Stockport some years ago get heated where a frustrated passenger, told his card 'must have no money on it' stormed through their check and bought a ticket from the TVM ten feet away - where his card worked fine.

It's a stupid situation where valid payment declines inexplicably, putting frontline staff unnecessarily in a position of conflict.

Surely they put themselves in a position of conflict by stating, with no evidence whatsoever, that a card "must have no money on it".

 

[northwichcat]

Surely they put themselves in a position of conflict by stating, with no evidence whatsoever, that a card "must have no money on it".

A post office clerk said that to me a few weeks back when the contactless failed. A stupid thing to say when it had enough money on it to post 700 items of the same value as the one I was posting!

 

[robbeech]

One assumes that the majority of the time the reason for card failures in say a shop or garage or cinema or restaurant is due to insufficient funds so you can understand someone assuming this at least COULD be the case. How they deal with ti is important though.
I have what can only be described as a "funny card". Simple business debit card issued by barclays but it has a bit of a do from time to time and won't work for the simplest of things. usually a second attempt will work.
For example, a certain fast food manufacturer, 1st attempt fails 9 out of 10 times, 2nd attempt goes through 9 out of 10 times. Luckily i rarely dine there.
Cashback works in Tesco, but few other supermarkets.
Van / Car hire places (tried 3) decline every single time without fail. Though they can do a "customer not present" thing using those card details and it works.

i've had the card replaced and it is the same, so it is not a physical card issue.

It must be frustrating to everyone that has to deal with this. Saying things like "There is clearly not enough money on it pal" is NOT the right way to handle the situation and this got a stern reply infront of the manager at one golden arched fast food restaurant from me explaining that there would be enough to cover all staff salaries and outright purchase of the premises on the card and if they would kindly try it again (it worked) that would be most helpful.

Rob

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The new machines to replace Avantix should solve this as I am told they have no swipe function (what happens with non-chip cards I have yet to find out) and will go online for authorisation if requested.

 

[Agent_c]

One assumes that the majority of the time the reason for card failures in say a shop or garage or cinema or restaurant is due to insufficient funds so you can understand someone assuming this at least COULD be the case. How they deal with ti is important though.
I have what can only be described as a "funny card". Simple business debit card issued by barclays but it has a bit of a do from time to time and won't work for the simplest of things. usually a second attempt will work.
For example, a certain fast food manufacturer, 1st attempt fails 9 out of 10 times, 2nd attempt goes through 9 out of 10 times. Luckily i rarely dine there.
Cashback works in Tesco, but few other supermarkets.
Van / Car hire places (tried 3) decline every single time without fail. Though they can do a "customer not present" thing using those card details and it works.

i've had the card replaced and it is the same, so it is not a physical card issue.

It must be frustrating to everyone that has to deal with this. Saying things like "There is clearly not enough money on it pal" is NOT the right way to handle the situation and this got a stern reply infront of the manager at one golden arched fast food restaurant from me explaining that there would be enough to cover all staff salaries and outright purchase of the premises on the card and if they would kindly try it again (it worked) that would be most helpful.

Rob

I agree, the correct response is never to imply the customer doesn't have enough cash... Its not the only reason why a card can fail, and its guaranteed to anger or embarrass the customer.

The customer should just, after the 2nd attempt, be politely directed to call their bank and ask them if there is an issue with the card.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Specifically, Northern Rail (plus STM / G4S) seem to have major problems with their Avantix machines accepting 70%-80% of cards. Seen one situation at Stockport some years ago get heated where a frustrated passenger, told his card 'must have no money on it' stormed through their check and bought a ticket from the TVM ten feet away - where his card worked fine.

It's a stupid situation where valid payment declines inexplicably, putting frontline staff unnecessarily in a position of conflict.

It does seem like an extremely stupid thing for STM to say, but then it's STM so there's no real surprise there.

Avantix doesn't have a live link so if the card declines it cannot be because there is no money in the account, Avantix couldn't know that because it cannot contact the bank.

AIUI, TVMs should be able to contact the bank as most have an internet connection for self reporting of faults, ToD and data downloads/uploads.

There are also cards which have a limit on 'offline spending', which would authorise for some amounts and not for others.

 

[185]

TVMs do have a live link to the (builders) server ie Scheidt & Bachmann, ATOS etc. If that link fails, there's usually headline grabbing results like at Scotrail, Manchester Metrolink etc.

Avantix, as I understand it, is like Andy off Little Britain. "Halifax one? Don't like it." :P

 

[najaB]

TVMs do have a live link to the (builders) server ie Scheidt & Bachmann, ATOS etc. If that link fails, there's usually headline grabbing results like at Scotrail, Manchester Metrolink etc.

Most do, but as I understand it there are some that do not - for example a lot of Merseyrail's don't. As a result they can sell tickets for immediate departure but you cannot collect pre-booked tickets.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Most do, but as I understand it there are some that do not - for example a lot of Merseyrail's don't. As a result they can sell tickets for immediate departure but you cannot collect pre-booked tickets.

It may just be that there is no link to the ToD database. Fares data has to be uploaded somehow and card data (for sales) still has to be downloaded. Do staff (railway, agency or other) go out to sort it periodically?

 

[najaB]

Do staff (railway, agency or other) go out to sort it periodically?

I believe that they do.

 

[blakey1152]

One assumes that the majority of the time the reason for card failures in say a shop or garage or cinema or restaurant is due to insufficient funds so you can understand someone assuming this at least COULD be the case. How they deal with ti is important though.
I have what can only be described as a "funny card". Simple business debit card issued by barclays but it has a bit of a do from time to time and won't work for the simplest of things. usually a second attempt will work.
For example, a certain fast food manufacturer, 1st attempt fails 9 out of 10 times, 2nd attempt goes through 9 out of 10 times. Luckily i rarely dine there.
Cashback works in Tesco, but few other supermarkets.
Van / Car hire places (tried 3) decline every single time without fail. Though they can do a "customer not present" thing using those card details and it works.

i've had the card replaced and it is the same, so it is not a physical card issue.

It must be frustrating to everyone that has to deal with this. Saying things like "There is clearly not enough money on it pal" is NOT the right way to handle the situation and this got a stern reply infront of the manager at one golden arched fast food restaurant from me explaining that there would be enough to cover all staff salaries and outright purchase of the premises on the card and if they would kindly try it again (it worked) that would be most helpful.

Rob

Rob, I had a card with a well known high street back that liked giving you extra. And I found that like you in a certain fast food restaurant with those arches that when I used the card it would show "Not Accepted" the first time but work fine the second time. I had a second account with them and that card also had the same issue. I have changed banks now and mysteriously....the problem has vanished!

 

[323235]

The new machines to replace Avantix should solve this as I am told they have no swipe function (what happens with non-chip cards I have yet to find out) and will go online for authorisation if requested.

Our iZettle mobile chip and pin has the capacity to do chip and sign by writing on the screen of the phone like you would with a courier package so one would expect you will be able to do that with the Avantix replacement

 

[island]

The new machines to replace Avantix should solve this as I am told they have no swipe function (what happens with non-chip cards I have yet to find out) and will go online for authorisation if requested.

You can probably key in the card number of both of the non-chip cards you get each year.

 

[Phil.]

Hi,

I just got off the train, my card was declined (as usual) but this ticket inspector refused to swipe, he said that this was the 3rd card in a row this morning and I shouldn't worry about it, anyway me being me and having a conscience I went straight to the ticket office in Nottingham and baught the return for the same price. I won't get in trouble for this can I? I heard stories of rail operators checking cameras and tracking down offenders, it was completely unintentional and paid the fare at the office in Nottingham, unlike the others opposite me who walked straight into the city without paying.

Sorry if in being stupid, just my conscience running wild haha

Wowsers, 19 posts and no-one's mentioned or quoted byelaw 18. Is this a record? Anyway, to helpful business. ".....but this ticket inspector........he said....I shouldn't worry about this".
Why are you worrying? You've done nothing wrong. The person in the wrong is the ticket inspector (barrier person?).

 

[Starmill]

You can probably key in the card number of both of the non-chip cards you get each year.

While continuing to reject the large number of cards that require online authorisation and there's no connection

 

[bb21]

The person in the wrong is the ticket inspector (barrier person?).

Erm, how?

 

[Phil.]

Erm, how?

Because, from reading the post, the passenger was simply directed out of the barrier with no attempt to take a name and address for payment. The poster mentioned other people just walking away without paying for their journey.

 

[northwichcat]

Because, from reading the post, the passenger was simply directed out of the barrier with no attempt to take a name and address for payment. The poster mentioned other people just walking away without paying for their journey.

I don't see a mention of any barrier staff in the original post. How do you know the barriers were in use at the time in question? Presumably if they were he/she either would have been sold a ticket before being allowed to reach the ticket office or alternatively had their details taken.

 

[najaB]

Because, from reading the post, the passenger was simply directed out of the barrier with no attempt to take a name and address for payment. The poster mentioned other people just walking away without paying for their journey.

While they were 'in the wrong' from the company accountant's point of view, they have neither put the passenger in non-compliance with any regulation - they are within their power as an officer of the railway operator to allow the passenger to travel without payment - nor have they made their company's inability to accept an advertised payment method the customer's problem.

 

[Phil.]

I don't see a mention of any barrier staff in the original post. How do you know the barriers were in use at the time in question? Presumably if they were he/she either would have been sold a ticket before being allowed to reach the ticket office or alternatively had their details taken.

Hi,

I just got off the train, my card was declined (as usual) but this ticket inspector refused to swipe, he said that this was the 3rd card in a row this morning and I shouldn't worry about it, anyway me being me and having a conscience I went straight to the ticket office in Nottingham and baught the return for the same price. I won't get in trouble for this can I? I heard stories of rail operators checking cameras and tracking down offenders, it was completely unintentional and paid the fare at the office in Nottingham, unlike the others opposite me who walked straight into the city without paying.

Well there's no mention of details being taken, and reading the bit about "just got off the train.......ticket inspector.......I went straight to the ticket office.....unlike the others opposite me who walked straight into the city without paying".

 

[northwichcat]

Well there's no mention of details being taken, and reading the bit about "just got off the train.......ticket inspector.......I went straight to the ticket office.....unlike the others opposite me who walked straight into the city without paying".

Ah OK I missed the bit about it being an inspector after alighting but there's no mention of being allowed through a closed barrier without a ticket. If the RPIs knew their machines were faulty could the barriers have been left open but they were still selling tickets to people who required one and were paying with cash?