Card Declined (Again!)

[fowler9]

I always get on the train at the furthest door from the station entrance and guard on my route. This because people are daft and will happily stand when there are seats further along the train. I am a good boy and have a trio ticket though.

 

[34D]

I'll give you an example of one passenger who I've seen more than once. He boards at Southease, a tiny station in the middle of knowhere. It has a pertis machine. He travels to Lewes. 3 min up the line. Never come up to you, always find him in the front coach. last few times I've found him right by the front just as we are cmoing into lewes. Wants to buy a single. £2.60. Hand over a basic nat west card which always declines and knows we dont have enough time to swipe. What he does after he gets off at lewes I dont know. Is he in the wrong knowing that his card does not work, but keeps using it. But then he comes from a station with no machine.

No he isn't in the wrong (in my view). He tenders a payment method that the railways advertise they accept.

This problem is at the hands of the banks (merging electron and delta and solo and switch) and the TOC (not installing booking offices, TVM's or using modern technology to get an online auth).
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I would suggest that such actions are demonstrating intent to avoid payment and leaving said passenger wide open to a RoRA prosecution. If it were me, I'd be looking at undertaking a week long revenue exercise at Lewes...

Ah, but we don't know what he does at Lewes.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm so glad that reb0118 has made this important and simple point:

A card in itself is not a valid method of payment it is a medium to transfer funds. If the transaction is declined then that is a matter between the passenger and their bank. If they do not have an alternative means of payment then then . . .

I think it worth repeating this basic truth for the benefit of a few on this forum who seem to believe otherwise.

 

[35B]

I'm so glad that reb0118 has made this important and simple point:I think it worth repeating this basic truth for the benefit of a few on this forum who seem to believe otherwise.

Agreed, but an example of where the law hasn't yet caught up with the reality of how the world works today. Especially since the end of the cheque guarantee scheme, I frequently panic if I can't pay on plastic. Till a year or so ago, T&W metro was a real nightmare because of this.

 

[fowler9]

I'm so glad that reb0118 has made this important and simple point:I think it worth repeating this basic truth for the benefit of a few on this forum who seem to believe otherwise.

It isn't really that clear though. My last card was a Visa Debit card and so is my current one. My last card was not accepted and my current one is.

 

[richw]

It isn't really that clear though. My last card was a Visa Debit card and so is my current one. My last card was not accepted and my current one is.

I didn't even know if mine was on or off line until I tried it on board a train. It authorised so I now know it's offline.

I must add I has sufficient cash for my fare, but had I used the cash I would have had to hunt down a cash machine at my destination as I was going for a couple of beers and the bar doesn't accept card.

 

[34D]

I'm so glad that reb0118 has made this important and simple point:I think it worth repeating this basic truth for the benefit of a few on this forum who seem to believe otherwise.

I disagree - the railways are at fault for not _letting_ the bank decide whether to authorise or decline the transaction.

This 'auto decline if not online' thing is different

 

[fowler9]

I didn't even know if mine was on or off line until I tried it on board a train. It authorised so I now know it's offline.

I must add I has sufficient cash for my fare, but had I used the cash I would have had to hunt down a cash machine at my destination as I was going for a couple of beers and the bar doesn't accept card.

I didn't know online and offline cards existed until I came on here. As far as I knew I just had a visa debit card and if I saw a sign saying Visa was accepted and not Electron or what have you I thought I was fine. Northern Rails staff never gave me any hassle, possibly because I normally have a ticket.

It is I guess down to me to know where and when my card is accepted but I didn't know there was a difference and neither the banks or the TOC's make it clear.

 

[318259]

My employer's merchant has updated the card payware system in the last week. Since the update it's told me to retain 4 cards.

Do you retain the cards or do you give them back?

When I worked in retail, the line was "try to retain it, but if they kick up fuss, give them it back". What do you do when you're on your own on a train, with no backup around, and some big, rough-looking guy's card says "retain"?

 

[Flamingo]

Do you retain the cards or do you give them back?

When I worked in retail, the line was "try to retain it, but if they kick up fuss, give them it back". What do you do when you're on your own on a train, with no backup around, and some big, rough-looking guy's card says "retain"?

I once accidentally dropped a Dyone "end-on" so it landed on the card, and the card snapped.

I once did it on purpose, as well...

 

[richw]

Do you retain the cards or do you give them back?

When I worked in retail, the line was "try to retain it, but if they kick up fuss, give them it back". What do you do when you're on your own on a train, with no backup around, and some big, rough-looking guy's card says "retain"?

We can't retain them, as all payments are taken remotely as we are not a face to face business

 

[34D]

We can't retain them, as all payments are taken remotely as we are not a face to face business

Railway or some other industry? Confused by this

 

[island]

Agreed, but an example of where the law hasn't yet caught up with the reality of how the world works today. Especially since the end of the cheque guarantee scheme, I frequently panic if I can't pay on plastic. Till a year or so ago, T&W metro was a real nightmare because of this.

Excellent post and far better than I could have put it.

The switch from Visa Electron and Solo to these dubious Visa Debit and Maestro cards that have some functions disabled is another example.

 

[DarloRich]

Scenario:-

The passenger......

1)....... boards a train at unstaffed station with a working card only TVM (other passengers have been able to purchase tickets from there).

2) ........asks if he can buy on board as he was running late (train has already departed).

3) ........asks for ticket to next stop, presents card for payment stating there are "issues" with this card you will have to key in the numbers. (The card was processed in the correct manner and the transaction was duly declined).

4) ........was asked to provide details so an invoice for the fare could be raised. (So the matter could be settled as a civil debt via an UFN or equivalent).

5) ........refuses to provide details and states he has made an offer of payment and it is not his fault his card was not accepted.

6).........further claims that he will purchase a ticket upon arrival at his destination. (No proof that he did, or did not, do so).

What offence(s), if any, have been committed?

I have been in a very similar position. I wanted to travel from a station on the Hallam line to Sheffield. There is a fancy new card only TVM at the station.... which rejected my card but accepted others! I had no cash as I rarely carry any finding a card more convenient.

The guard had no problem in offering me a ticket on the train via his card machine........ which rejected the card. I was becoming a little unhappy as I knew my card worked as I bought a drink and a sandwich from the local co op a few minutes before travelling and I knew what was coming next!

The guard was ok and said he would have to offer a UPFN notice. I wasn’t best pleased about this as I knew my card worked! I used almost exactly the same words as point 5 and suggested the action proposed in point 6!

Eventually the guard accepted the suggestion I buy at my destination after I pointed out to him, politely, that there was no way he was having any of my details as I felt I had done nothing wrong and “his” equipment was at fault. He was fine with things and didn’t get difficult and we had a decent chat. I duly bought the ticket on arrival, with the same card. HOWEVER I could have left Sheffield and strolled off into the sunset.

I had no intention to evade the fair and was happy to pay. I offered means of payment twice (not withstanding the legal status of a bank card – to most it equals cash) which were rejected.

I realise that the easy stock answer is that I am at fault, however consideration needs to be given to the equipment provided to guards, the interaction with the banks and the creation of a system that actually facilitates payment, revenue collection/protection and banking administration.

 

[maniacmartin]

I can see how people may be caught out.

There's a small Northern-managed station I use sometimes which has a card-only TVM. The last two times I have used this TVM, it has declined two of my American Expresses, but accepted a Visa card I have.

 

[island]

The newer Northern TVMs don't seem to take Amex for some reason.