Card Declined (Again!)

[reb0118]

Scenario:-

The passenger......

1)....... boards a train at unstaffed station with a working card only TVM (other passengers have been able to purchase tickets from there).

2) ........asks if he can buy on board as he was running late (train has already departed).

3) ........asks for ticket to next stop, presents card for payment stating there are "issues" with this card you will have to key in the numbers. (The card was processed in the correct manner and the transaction was duly declined).

4) ........was asked to provide details so an invoice for the fare could be raised. (So the matter could be settled as a civil debt via an UFN or equivalent).

5) ........refuses to provide details and states he has made an offer of payment and it is not his fault his card was not accepted.

6).........further claims that he will purchase a ticket upon arrival at his destination. (No proof that he did, or did not, do so).

What offence(s), if any, have been committed?

 

[clagmonster]

I would say at least:
"18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel."

and

"ENFORCEMENT AND INTERPRETATION

23. Name and address

(1) Any person reasonably suspected by an authorised person of breaching or
attempting to breach any of these Byelaws shall give his name and address
when asked by an authorised person. "
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

As he approached the guard, I would be unsure whether a RoRA offence is also committed.

 

[34D]

It seems a bone of contention on here whether a card only TVM constitutes an opportunity to pay.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

What offence(s), if any, have been committed?

The way in which the example is set up would, in England and Wales, draw me to consider that a Fraud has been attempted - and probably has succeeded. But as you know, reb0118, the Fraud Act does not apply in Scotland, though Common Law Fraud offences do apply, and I guess you are asking about incidents in Scotland.

I'd be quicker to think that the behaviour described would technically be captured by Common Law Fraud than I would be to think that the Procurator Fiscal would would actually pursue it.

Where I do think the industry fails in managing fare evasion in Scotland is its hesitance to pursue a Civil prosecution - while the Procurator Fiscal is unlikely to consider that an incidence of fare evasion is an appropriate use of public resources, it should begin to introduce some useful deterrent effect if the Company brought about Civil prosecutions against some regular offenders.

 

[Flamingo]

The question really is, what can be done about it?

Answer: unless there are RPI's at the next station, the square root of bugger-all. (BTP don't count, as unless the passenger has committed a public order offence in front of them so they can't ignore it, they don't want to know).

 

[island]

It's disheartening that this all works perfectly. The passenger (who was probably at the station in plenty of time) knows full well what will happen and can act more or less with impunity, even if, as seems likely, that a common law fraud has been committed.

The only improvement I can think of would be if the guard had phoned through for authorization and been asked to withdraw the bank card, the latter being rather an uncommon occurrence.

 

[Flamingo]

The authorisation call takes two forms, either:
1. a standard authorisation call, which is totally automated and only says Approved (with a number) / Declined
2. a Code 10 (suspected fraud) call to "Steve" (real name Rajish) who on a poor line wants to know everything up to your inside leg measurement before even proceeding with the call, by which stage either the station has come and gone, or the signal has dropped out.

 

[bb21]

I believe that the passenger's actions are contrary to Section 5.2 of the RoRA. It should be argued that he failed to pay his fare because he failed to offer a valid payment method.

Of course whether you are "allowed" to detain him is a huge obstacle in its enforcement.

 

[reb0118]

It seems a bone of contention on here whether a card only TVM constitutes an opportunity to pay.

I would concur that if your only opportunity to pay is a card only TVM, and you have both the means to pay by card or cash, then there may be an argument as to whether you have to use your card or that you can indeed pay by cash on board with no penalty. I have no problems accepting cash on board in those circumstances.

However, if you only have a card for payment then surely a card only TVM, in working order, is clearly an opportunity to pay.

Agreed?

 

[jopsuk]

I'd be suspecting there's half a chance that he's nicked the card anyway...

 

[Fare-Cop]

The passenger......

1)....... boards a train at unstaffed station with a working card only TVM (other passengers have been able to purchase tickets from there).

I notice that DaveNewcastle has rightly responded to the situation if this scenario occurs north of the border, but what about in England & Wales?

2) ........asks if he can buy on board as he was running late (train has already departed).

Much depends on the answer to this question. If the traveller is given permission to board without a ticket then the potential for Byelaw 18 offences has been negated immediately

3) ........asks for ticket to next stop, presents card for payment stating there are "issues" with this card you will have to key in the numbers. (The card was processed in the correct manner and the transaction was duly declined).

Ensuring that a traveller holds acceptable means to pay is not the responsibility of the rail company. It was clear from the comment alleged to have been made by the traveller that he knew the card was not going to work in the machine and therefore, if no other means of payment was held by him, he intended to travel without the means to pay before boarding. It is up to the traveller to pay on request or give his name and address if requested. (S.5 RoRA [1889])

4) ........was asked to provide details so an invoice for the fare could be raised. (So the matter could be settled as a civil debt via an UFN or equivalent).

5) ........refuses to provide details and states he has made an offer of payment and it is not his fault his card was not accepted.

No valid ticket is held, traveller has failed to pay the fare on request, traveller has refused to provide name & address on request.

What offence(s), if any, have been committed?

In my opinion this can be pursued as an offence contrary to S.5.3.c RoRA.

I would certainly consider applying for such a summons.

 

[34D]

Ensuring that a traveller holds acceptable means to pay is not the responsibility of the rail company.

Hmmm. This is gonna open the debate about 'online/offline' cards and whether or not the railway ought to update it's equipment. We had a thread very recently on this, with no consensus.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Perhaps. But let's be careful to make a distinction between the Law and the consensus of this forum.

It is helpful that reb0118 has been careful to give vital information about the passenger's statements and actions and that Fare-Cop has referred to these in framing his answer. In those circumstances, I have to agree with Fare-Cop.

 

[richw]

The only improvement I can think of would be if the guard had phoned through for authorization and been asked to withdraw the bank card, the latter being rather an uncommon occurrence.

My employer's merchant has updated the card payware system in the last week. Since the update it's told me to retain 4 cards. It's never asked me to retain a single card in 3 years of being at the company prior to this update.

 

[455driver]

It seems a bone of contention on here whether a card only TVM constitutes an opportunity to pay.

If the passenger wants to pay by card how can it not be an opportunity to pay?

 

[GaryMcEwan]

From what I saw yesterday, Scotrail's Chip and Pin machines have to be the worst.

I was travelling from Glasgow to Livingston South, and along the way there are a lot of stations without ticket offices and self ticket machines. And due to most of the stations along the way were out in the country, there didn't appear to be many cash machines around either.

When people got on at the sparse stations and wanted to pay by card, the card machine declined it straight away, this happened to at least 8 people but yet the conductor was making out to be the passengers fault by not having any cash on them to pay for the ticket and stated that if it happened again when that conductor was on, he threatened to take all their names and send them off to Scotrail for Penalty Fares.

To be fair, I think he was just a jobsworth conductor as he asked what my disability was due to me having a Disabled Railcard, but he got firmly told under the Equality Act 2010 he couldn't ask me that sort of question.

 

[richw]

If the passenger wants to pay by card how can it not be an opportunity to pay?

That was my thoughts as well. Perhaps swing the scenario to a cash only TVM.

To put another scenario, with a card only TVM, I have cash for my fare, and also a debit card, however bank balance is say £1, which is insufficient for the fare. My bank will allow my account to overdrawn but then charge a fee. Is that an opportunity to pay? Personally I feel it isn't, as I see it unacceptable to incur bank charges because no opportunity to pay by cash, what's other peoples views on that scenario?

 

[WillPS]

I sympathise with those expected to police the ridiculous excuse for a system there is currently in place.

I have no sympathy with the railways who must be loosing tens of thousands every day due to their stubbornness on the issue.

 

[34D]

If the passenger wants to pay by card how can it not be an opportunity to pay?

We don't know what they want to buy. Let's suppose they bought the cheapest ticket from the TVM that allows them to make part of their journey. Then exchange it at the first opportunity.....

 

[fowler9]

We don't know what they want to buy. Let's suppose they bought the cheapest ticket from the TVM that allows them to make part of their journey. Then exchange it at the first opportunity.....

Well thats a pretty negative view of society. Ha ha.

 

[bb21]

Perhaps. But let's be careful to make a distinction between the Law and the consensus of this forum.

It is helpful that reb0118 has been careful to give vital information about the passenger's statements and actions and that Fare-Cop has referred to these in framing his answer. In those circumstances, I have to agree with Fare-Cop.

Is refusal to provide name and address captured by Section 5.3(c)? I couldn't see how it would be in a literal interpretation hence my mention of 5.2 instead earlier.

 

[sarahj]

I'll give you an example of one passenger who I've seen more than once. He boards at Southease, a tiny station in the middle of knowhere. It has a pertis machine. He travels to Lewes. 3 min up the line. Never come up to you, always find him in the front coach. last few times I've found him right by the front just as we are cmoing into lewes. Wants to buy a single. £2.60. Hand over a basic nat west card which always declines and knows we dont have enough time to swipe. What he does after he gets off at lewes I dont know. Is he in the wrong knowing that his card does not work, but keeps using it. But then he comes from a station with no machine.


Anyway, some light relief, but a bit off topic. The other day I was working a train and passenger boards at a station with a open ticket office and machines. As i walk through the train he askes for a ticket. I sell him one (card declines but i swipe/tap in, its only £3.60), but point out he should have bought one at the station he boarded. We get to end station and he goes to ticket office and complains that I told him off for boarding without a ticket. The TO person says that he should have bought one, lucky he did not get a PF and points to the large PF poster on display. Pass says they were in a hurry (note train sits on the station he boards for 3 mins and he boarded the second we arrived) and wants to complain anyway, takes away customer comment form. As an aside another pass who overhead the TO person tell me this, then says, that pass was there for at least 10 mins before the train arrived.

 

[Haydn1971]

As an aside, I've always thought it would be a good idea for guards to start at the front of the train at least 30% of the time to ensure fare dodgers get their routine disturbed >evil grin

 

[sarahj]

Sometimes (person who i dont know and have never met ) you have to start from certain places when you can dispatch. On one train we do there is a set of cheeky so and so's who get on one train at a station as a group and split up, some to the back, some to the front. Since their train trip is only 4 mins you can only get to one set. they all pay up when asked, some even have their money ready. but you only ever get one lot. Its on the first train out west that it happens.
You have to ask yourself, if someone who boards the train in the front door of coach 1 at a station where the entry to the platform is past the rear of the train, then travels one station to a place where the exit is again past the rear of the train, so when they get off they have to walk the lenght of the platform again is realy trying to pay his fare. All for £2.60. sigh', but then do it every day, each way and a time when there are never any rpos around, the savings pile up.

 

[Haydn1971]

I can't imagine who you are talking about but agreed, I used to see it on the first Sheffield to Leeds service with lot of coins being fumbled for single tickets, lots of people pretending to be asleep, looking out the window etc... Frustrating as a fare paying passenger seeing people trying to get away with it, but I always did my part in pointing them out for the staff

 

[Fare-Cop]

Is refusal to provide name and address captured by Section 5.3(c)? I couldn't see how it would be in a literal interpretation hence my mention of 5.2 instead earlier.

I omitted to say that it would be sensible to apply for S.5.(3)(a) and 5.(3)(c) in such a case.

 

[Harpers Tate]

As an aside, I've always thought it would be a good idea for guards to start at the front of the train at least 30% of the time to ensure fare dodgers get their routine disturbed >evil grin

Based on observation of (mostly Northern's) conductors I have to agree.

It seems to me (and I stand to be corrected of course) that, once station duties are complete and the train is underway, it makes not a jot of difference which part of the train the conductor then heads for to take up revenue activity.

I mean - if, before {stop 1} they only made it 90% of the way, then after {stop 1} they are likely to head directly back to that 90% point to re-commence. Which isn't materially different (is it?) to heading straight for the front on departure in the first place, and working back instead.

 

[TheEdge]

As an aside, I've always thought it would be a good idea for guards to start at the front of the train at least 30% of the time to ensure fare dodgers get their routine disturbed >evil grin

I do that. On certain trains I'll somehow, no idea how, have ended up working the doors from the front vestibule rather than the back. The look on their faces is priceless, gets me every time.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I'll give you an example of one passenger who I've seen more than once. He boards at Southease, a tiny station in the middle of knowhere. It has a pertis machine. He travels to Lewes. 3 min up the line. Never come up to you, always find him in the front coach. last few times I've found him right by the front just as we are cmoing into lewes. Wants to buy a single. £2.60. Hand over a basic nat west card which always declines and knows we dont have enough time to swipe. What he does after he gets off at lewes I dont know. Is he in the wrong knowing that his card does not work, but keeps using it. But then he comes from a station with no machine.

I would suggest that such actions are demonstrating intent to avoid payment and leaving said passenger wide open to a RoRA prosecution. If it were me, I'd be looking at undertaking a week long revenue exercise at Lewes...

 

[reb0118]

To play devil's advocate:-

From what I saw yesterday, Scotrail's Chip and Pin machines have to be the worst.

The thyron device only has two main functions with regard to most card transactions. 1) It verifies that the PIN is correct and 2) it confirms that the account has "off line" authorisation - if no "off line" authoristion is present the transaction will decline. They seem to perform these tasks adequately well.

I was travelling from Glasgow to Livingston South, and along the way there are a lot of stations without ticket offices and self ticket machines. And due to most of the stations along the way were out in the country, there didn't appear to be many cash machines around either.

The only stations that I would class as semi-rural are Hartwood, Breich, & Addiewell. Every other station is situated in or near a town. Due to the demographics of the area it is unlikely that there will be an increase in TVMs shortly.

When people got on at the sparse stations and wanted to pay by card, the card machine declined it straight away, this happened to at least 8 people but yet the conductor was making out to be the passengers fault by not having any cash on them to pay for the ticket.......

A card in itself is not a valid method of payment it is a medium to transfer funds. If the transaction is declined then that is a matter between the passenger and their bank. If they do not have an alternative means of payment then the passengers details should be taken, a "Declined Card Form" completed, and a zero fare ticket issued so the passenger can complete their journey. The passenger will receive an invoice for the fare and as long as they are not known to the company no administration fees will be added.

.........and stated that if it happened again when that conductor was on, he threatened to take all their names and send them off to Scotrail for Penalty Fares.

ScotRail do not operate a penalty fares system. That said if their cards' had declined the passengers in the above scenario should have had their details taken and reported via a "Declined Card Form". This helps the company to build up a database of passengers who do this on a regular basis. Passengers boarding at stations with facilities in working order should, however, be processed via the Ticket Irregularity Form system where persistent evaders may find themselves reported to the BTP for further action.

To be fair, I think he was just a jobsworth conductor as he asked what my disability was due to me having a Disabled Railcard, but he got firmly told under the Equality Act 2010 he couldn't ask me that sort of question.

I do not see why he would need to know your disability. That said I do not think there is any law that prohibits this though. It may be, being charitable, that he wished to know in case you needed extra assistance or time alighting e.g. It may be, being cheeky, that he suspected that the railcard was not yours. I do not know as I was not there.

In all cases these Benhar services can be busy at times, esp. with only a few minutes between the Lanarkshire stops. Guards will struggle to complete revenue checks even when most folk are paying with cash. Declined card transactions only add to this burden, and whilst not excusing, can add frustration to an already busy & stressful section of track.

An old hand (retired now) used to say "Son, just stay at the back from Bellshill to Cleland then all your problems will disappear, sorted!"

Who's to say he is not correct?