Card Clash Issue

[Bill Badger]

Not sure if this should be in the buses or fares section of the Forum, but as it is a fares dispute I’ve posted here!

I purchased a 1-day bus ticket from Go Cornwall on their App, which is fully inter-available on all First Kernow services.

However, on two journeys I made that day on First Kernow services due to card clash I was also charged via their Tap & Go system onto the contactless card that was in my phone wallet.

I have asked First Kernow for a refund these fares and in principle they are willing to do so, but wanted proof I had a Go Cornwall Day Ticket and won't process a refund without any.

Once a ticket has expired the Go Cornwall App simply deletes the ticket leaving no record and having spoken to Go Cornwall they are unable to provide me with anything showing I activated the ticket on the day.

I would have thought that there must be a record of usage on systems somewhere, but neither company claim they are able to help.

Any suggestions as to how I might proceed? It's only a few £s, so guess I might just have to chalk it up to experience, but it is a bit annoying!

 

[Mike99]

What about proof on a bank statement that you made a purchase?

 

[John R]

I would chalk it up to experience. Card clash has been around long enough that I think the user has to accept some responsibility.

 

[gazthomas]

I always keep my cards and phone separate, so I at least have a chance of making it home if I lose one or the other

 

[Haywain]

In the current PlusBus thread the following appears, which I believe might explain the problem or at least help understand it:

There is a known issue with NFC clash in Ticketer machines where the barcode scanner and NFC reader are close together, so trying to scan a barcode can trigger the NFC reader (its faster than the barcde scanner) to open the wallet and, and then make a TOTO payment where the customer has given permissions.
Bus companies get around the clash by only allowing their barcode products in app, and suppressing the NFC reader in the device, which is relatively straightforward (a couple of lines of code and permission from Google/Apple/Samsung, which is simpler and quicker than you might expect)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==

The solution is clearly not to keep a payment card in the phone wallet when using the phone in this way.

 

[londonbridge]

I would chalk it up to experience. Card clash has been around long enough that I think the user has to accept some responsibility.

Yes, but to me card clash usually refers to having two physical cards, for example an Oyster and a credit card, in the same ticket wallet, so the gateline doesn’t know which card you intend to use.

Also, forgive me for being confused, but if you were using a ticket bought through and stored in a separate phone app, (the Go Cornwall app), I don’t follow how the tap and go system managed to access the bank card stored in your Apple/Google wallet?

edit: have now seen Haywain’s response above mine.

 

[Haywain]

I don’t follow how the tap and go system managed to access the bank card stored in your Apple/Google wallet?

I read it as a physical card in a physical wallet designed to go round a phone.

 

[Blorp]

This particular issue is when storing a payment card in the phone’s digital wallet. On iPhone you have the option of selecting a card which you’ve loaded into the phone’s wallet as an “Express Travel Card” (I don’t know what it’s called on Android but I do know some Samsung phones definitely have the same functionality). An Express Travel Card will work automatically when the phone is presented at a transit system’s tap and go reader without needing a biometric or passcode verification, the idea is it speeds up the process of using that gate by removing that step of the process and as it is a feature only available on payments for travel there is not too much of a worry about thieves being able to rinse people’s bank accounts using phone’s that have been stolen.

The problem is when you do not wish to pay for your travel using the card that has been selected as the Express Travel Card.

If you have the setting enabled, it will automatically trigger a charge to the Express Travel Card if the phone detects a transit NFC (Near Field Communication) reader near by (it must be within about 8cm of the phone) regardless of what else you may have loaded on the phone or stored in a wallet/case combo thing, ie: a barcode or Aztec code to be scanned optically, or if you keep a bank card, Oyster card or ITSO formatted smart card which you plan to use to pay for travel in the phone’s case for convenience.

The functionality SHOULDN’T be automatically activated but there have been a few software updates over the years where once I’ve installed them, I’ve suddenly found one of my payment cards in my phone wallet activated as an Express Travel Card and unwanted charges to my device have resulted

 

[Haywain]

This particular issue is when storing a payment card in the phone’s digital wallet.

I don't think it is. It appears to me that the OP has opened the wallet/case around his phone, which contains a payment card in the cover, and with that side of the wallet/case folded underneath the phone has presented the barcode on the screen to the ticket machine. The machine has then read the payment card as that is the first thing it looks for. Any setting in the app will only affect the phone's NFC, and not the reader, so the reader has read the physical card and ignored the barcode.

It would be helpful if @Bill Badger could confirm my interpretation of the situation.

 

[Bill Badger]

I don't think it is. It appears to me that the OP has opened the wallet/case around his phone, which contains a payment card in the cover, and with that side of the wallet/case folded underneath the phone has presented the barcode on the screen to the ticket machine. The machine has then read the payment card as that is the first thing it looks for. Any setting in the app will only affect the phone's NFC, and not the reader, so the reader has read the physical card and ignored the barcode.

It would be helpful if @Bill Badger could confirm my interpretation of the situation.

Haywain's interpretation is correct - it was a physical card, sat within my physical phone covering. The phone had a digital ticket enable, but the ticket machine on the bus took payment off my physical card first.

 

[BongoStar]

I would have thought that there must be a record of usage on systems somewhere, but neither company claim they are able to help.

If the scanner read your physical card, it would have not read the mobile ticket. In which case there would be no record of usage on their systems. From their perspective, it could have been activated, but never presented by the user - atleast that's the only thing the system records would prove.
 

 

[Bill Badger]

If the scanner read your physical card, it would have not read the mobile ticket. In which case there would be no record of usage on their systems. From their perspective, it could have been activated, but never presented by the user - atleast that's the only thing the system records would prove.
 

Later on in the day, I made 3 further journeys where card clash didn't occur. This is strange in itself in that the physical card was still in the physical wallet, but maybe I held it differently. Presumably that usage should show on their system and whilst not cast-iron evidence, it would be very unlikely anyone would use Tap & Go twice and then activate a day pass later the same day.

 

[Robbouk]

In the app, if you're logged in, go to Settings and they may be a Recently Expired Tickets section.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==

The above is based on another bus operator who uses the same app technology as Go Cornwall.

 

[Bill Badger]

In the app, if you're logged in, go to Settings and they may be a Recently Expired Tickets section.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==

The above is based on another bus operator who uses the same app technology as Go Cornwall.

Thanks for the suggestion - better than anything Go Cornwall came up with!

The section is indeed there, but unfortunately no tickets, so guessing 'recent' is less than a week.