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Capping on an annual Oyster?

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postye

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Just a quick question for the experts on Oyster travelcards & capping.

If I have an annual Z1-4 travelcard on an oyster and PAYG credit but make a number of trips into Z5/6 on a particular day, when would a daily cap kick in?
Would it be at the full £5.90 day travelcard or is there another cap for Z5-6?

Also how much difference would this make if I travelled to Grays & back?

Thanks
 
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IanD

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Just a quick question for the experts on Oyster travelcards & capping.

If I have an annual Z1-4 travelcard on an oyster and PAYG credit but make a number of trips into Z5/6 on a particular day, when would a daily cap kick in?
Would it be at the full £5.90 day travelcard or is there another cap for Z5-6?

Also how much difference would this make if I travelled to Grays & back?

Thanks

The cap would be applied as if you have no travelcard on your Oyster so you are effectively paying twice for the z1-4 travel. (Other people on here disagree but to me if you've paid to travel in z1-4 and then don't get any reduction in the daily cap when travelling outside these zones, that is paying twice!)
 

Feathers44

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(Other people on here disagree but to me if you've paid to travel in z1-4 and then don't get any reduction in the daily cap when travelling outside these zones, that is paying twice!)

I understand what you're saying and I know this is me getting sidetracked but I don't think is as simple as you imply.

If someone only travels in zones 5-6 on that particular day, why should they be entitled to a reduced cap just because they have a travelcard for zones they're not using?

If there were a zone 5-6 paper travelcard available for less than the cap, I think there would be a stronger case to answer.

Using your travelcard zones on the day muddies the water a bit and I can see an arguement for a lower cap but if you were doing the same journeys on paper tickets you'd still have to buy a full zone 1-6 travelcard for unlimited travel in zones 5 and 6 wouldn't you? (i.e. you'd pay twice on paper travelcards as well as Oyster)

To my eyes, you're highlighting a new fare structure rather than pointing out a failing in the Oyster system. I can't say I disagree but I suspect the complexity it will add to everything means that it won't happen any time soon.

(I'm now not clear whether we agree or disagree!)

Back on topic...
 

Tetchytyke

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The cap would be applied as if you have no travelcard on your Oyster so you are effectively paying twice for the z1-4 travel.

I really don't follow your logic.

If you have a Z1-4 travelcard you only need to zone five and beyond. This fare, with a railcard discount, is a massive £1.20 off peak, even if you actually started on the other side of zone four. You're not paying twice.

The price cap is set at the Z1-6 travelcard price, but if you've travelled enough to hit the price cap you're still saving money.
 

Tetchytyke

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...there being no price cap at all.

Getting rid of the Z2-6 day Travelcard (and equivalent price cap) was wrong. But it doesn't mean you're "paying twice", given the single fare only takes into account the zones you don't have on your Travelcard.
 

bb21

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I am not going to get into an argument about what you can compare things to because to be frank, you can compare it to a number of things to suit your argument and they can all be correct.

But I agree with IanD's points.
 

Be3G

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Would it be at the full £5.90 day travelcard or is there another cap for Z5-6?

One point to note: ensure that your gold card discount has been applied to your Oyster, as it's a manual process which some clerks will forget to carry out. Otherwise, your 5–6 cap will actually be £8.50.
 

MikeWh

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My twopenneth worth:

If you had a zone 1-4 travelcard season and bought paper tickets to the boundary of zone 4 then you would be doing the same as you do with Oyster, albeit the paper tickets would cost more). You are only paying for the travel in zones 5-6. The only day travelcards which cover just zones 5-6 also cover zones 1-4 (ie they are either 1-6 or 1-9). Therefore the Oyster cap is the same equivalent cap.

As a separate aside, there used to be a zone 2-6 and 2-9 cap/travelcard which was abolished some years ago. The rationale was that on TfL routes the off-peak fare for travel in those zones was so cheap that using PAYG would almost always be cheaper. The fact that NR off-peak fares outside zone 1 are much higher was irrelevant to Boris. However, last year they introduced oyster only caps for zones 1-2 and 1-4 when they removed the paper travelcards, so I firmly believe that there is a big enough case to restore the 2-6 and 2-9 caps on Oyster only.
 

IanD

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I really don't follow your logic.

If you have a Z1-4 travelcard you only need to zone five and beyond. This fare, with a railcard discount, is a massive £1.20 off peak, even if you actually started on the other side of zone four. You're not paying twice.

The price cap is set at the Z1-6 travelcard price, but if you've travelled enough to hit the price cap you're still saving money.

An annual z1-4 travelcard costs £1800. Assuming you could use it 365 days a year that would equate to £4.90 a day. A Zone 1-6 cap is £8.50 without a Gold Card or £5.60 with one. Therefore someone with a travelcard will have paid at least £10.50 for a day's unlimited travel in zones 1-6.

So, an annual z1-4 travelcard holder is being charged at least £2 more than someone with no travelcard.

A passenger with only a monthly z1-4 travelcard and therefore no gold card is penalised even more. Their ticket works out at min £5.50/day then the cap is £8.50, so a total of £14 compared to the £8.50 paid by the non-travelcard holder.

Even worse for a weekly travelcard holder @ £6.40 a day.
 

Be3G

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However, last year they introduced oyster only caps for zones 1-2 and 1-4 when they removed the paper travelcards

Those 1–2 and 1–4 caps were available from the beginning, or at least for years before the abolition of the 2–6 (which I'm still annoyed about!). I remember back in 2010 I used to endure a long bus ride to join the tube at Southgate (zone 4) in order to get a railcard-discounted cap of just £3.35, which was brilliant value.

Actually, having written that, I now realise you were most likely pointing to the introduction of the concept of Oyster caps that didn't align with paper travelcards. Ah well, in case anyone else is confused, I'll still leave what I said above intact.
 

MikeWh

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Actually, having written that, I now realise you were most likely pointing to the introduction of the concept of Oyster caps that didn't align with paper travelcards. Ah well, in case anyone else is confused, I'll still leave what I said above intact.

Yes, that's what I meant.

Also, I do sympathise with the idea of paying twice for travel, but it has nothing to do with Oyster and everything to do with the products available.
 

Tetchytyke

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So, an annual z1-4 travelcard holder is being charged at least £2 more than someone with no travelcard.

If someone holding a Z1-4 travelcard is regularly travelling outside of their zones then they've bought the wrong travelcard product. For occasional journeys they can decide to stump up the £1.20 or they can always take the bus.

The only day travelcard products are Z1-2, Z1-4, Z1-6 and Z1-9, and there's no off-peak version of the first two, and the price caps match these products. The fact there isn't a Z5-6 day travelcard or Oyster cap doesn't mean you're paying twice for a journey. You're paying £1.20 for each tube or rail journey you take outside of your zones.

Even if the Z2-6 Oyster cap was brought back you'd still be "paying twice" for zones 2, 3 and 4.

I understand why it's frustrating, but you know the limitations of the system when you choose which Travelcard to buy.
 

postye

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If someone holding a Z1-4 travelcard is regularly travelling outside of their zones then they've bought the wrong travelcard product. For occasional journeys they can decide to stump up the £1.20 or they can always take the bus.
.

Thanks for all the responses.

Yes, Arctic Troll is probably right - I probably do have the wrong travelcard product for what I am doing at the moment - but unfortunately I was unable to foresee being made redundant when I bought an annual ticket 9 months ago.

Currently as I'm doing some voluntary work, I'm needing to do 2 return journeys into Z6, one at around lunchtime and another in the evening peak which is currently costing me £5.30 daily, and while I could probably use the bus for 1 leg of each of the return journey the other leg would need to be on the train - and the time penalty especially in the evening peak, for doing so would be excessive.

The cap to Grays is even more excessive - a paper ticket return is only £4.70 yet I'd be charged a premium of £6 just to use Oyster! At that price its almost better to drive.
 

Tetchytyke

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I'm needing to do 2 return journeys into Z6, one at around lunchtime and another in the evening peak which is currently costing me £5.30 daily

If you're doing it every day you could either get a changeover for your annual season (to make it z1-6) or you could buy a Z5-6 Travelcard for £23.60 a week or £90 a month.
 

postye

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If you're doing it every day you could either get a changeover for your annual season (to make it z1-6) or you could buy a Z5-6 Travelcard for £23.60 a week or £90 a month.

Yes I had looked at the additional travelcard, but as its only 4 days per week its even more expensive at a time when money is tight.
 

MikeWh

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The cap to Grays is even more excessive - a paper ticket return is only £4.70 yet I'd be charged a premium of £6 just to use Oyster! At that price its almost better to drive.

The Grays area daily cap has always been an anomaly which is also why you can't load travelcard seasons including Grays onto an Oyster card.
 

bb21

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If someone holding a Z1-4 travelcard is regularly travelling outside of their zones then they've bought the wrong travelcard product. For occasional journeys they can decide to stump up the £1.20 or they can always take the bus.

The only day travelcard products are Z1-2, Z1-4, Z1-6 and Z1-9, and there's no off-peak version of the first two, and the price caps match these products. The fact there isn't a Z5-6 day travelcard or Oyster cap doesn't mean you're paying twice for a journey. You're paying £1.20 for each tube or rail journey you take outside of your zones.

Even if the Z2-6 Oyster cap was brought back you'd still be "paying twice" for zones 2, 3 and 4.

Single fares become meaningless in the context of caps.

You are also missing the fundamental point that paying for Zones 2, 3 or 4 again is not usually a significant issue, as opposed to the hefty premium of having to pay twice for Zone 1 travel.

What other reasons are there for the removal of the cheaper cap outside Zone 1, other than stealth fare rise? Simplifying the product range is a complete red herring as with the introduction of electronic ticketing, this becomes easier to do than ever before, not more difficult.

The simple matter of fact is that TfL over the last few years have introduced stealth fare increases left, right and centre, while shamefully attempted to dress them up as something they are not or play down these increases.

I understand why it's frustrating, but you know the limitations of the system when you choose which Travelcard to buy.

That is a poor attitude to adopt. I am sure you were not very happy when the same argument was trotted out in the context of National Rail disputes in the past.

Just because the passenger is aware of the limitations of the product purchased does not mean there is no room for improvement.
 

Tetchytyke

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What other reasons are there for the removal of the cheaper cap outside Zone 1, other than stealth fare rise?

Of course it was a stealth fares rise, there have been loads of them, it's something TfL specialise in. Changing it so you can only buy a minimum of two zones for a period Travelcard is probably the worst example of it.

There's never been a Z5-6 fare cap or day Travelcard, though. And in the context of the fares being so low, I don't get the anger.
 

MikeWh

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There's never been a Z5-6 fare cap or day Travelcard, though. And in the context of the fares being so low, I don't get the anger.

The old zone 2-6 cap was the cheapest rail cap available, just below the zone 1-2 rate. If you lived in outer zone land and miles from any TfL lines you'd understand.
 
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