Capenhurst to Manchester valid via Liverpool?

[nedchester]

Been getting a Capenhurst to Manchester ticket for a while but noticed on NRE that via Liverpool is not valid. I am sure it didn't used to be although is a couple of miles further.

Looking at the routing guide tickets from Capenhurst can be routed Chester or Capenhurst. As fares from Capenhurst are priced the same as Chester then the ticket is obviously valid route. However routing via Hooton the routing guide says check the single fares.

The Cheap day single (off peak single) from Cap and Hooton to Man (NFM 03 - anyone got NFM 04 to check this?) is £12 - the same price. So unlss there has recently been a changed then via Liverpool is valid? Is that correct???

 

[clagmonster]

Looking at the routeing guide, we see the following:
Capenhurst is a related station to Chester and Hooton.
Manchester is a member of the Manchester Group.
The Capenhurst to Manchester day single is £12.10.
The Chester to Manchester day single is £12.10, the same as the Capenhurst fare, so Chester is an appropriate routeing point.
The Hooton to Manchester day single is £13.30, which is more than the Capenhurst fare, so Hooton is not an appropriate routeing point. The £12 fare is a cheap day single, but there is no cheap day single from Capenhurst to Manchester, so we have to compare the day single fares.
The routeing permissions for Chester to Manchester are: CH+MS, CL and GM.
CH+MS gives:
Chester-Crewe-Wilmslow-Manchester
Chester-Crewe-Wilmslow-Stockport-Manchester
Chester-Crewe-Wilmslow-Stockport-Hazel Grove-Chinley-Romiley-Guide Bridge-Manchester
Chester-Crewe-Wilmslow-Stockport-Hazel Grove-Chinley-Romiley-Manchester

CL gives:
Chester-Runcorn group-Warrington-Earlstown-Eccles-Manchester

GM gives:
Chester-Stockport-Manchester

As far as I am aware, there is no copy of NFM04 on the internet. I got the fares from the GNER website.

 

[nedchester]

Looking at the routeing guide, we see the following:
Capenhurst is a related station to Chester and Hooton.
Manchester is a member of the Manchester Group.
The Capenhurst to Manchester day single is £12.10.
The Chester to Manchester day single is £12.10, the same as the Capenhurst fare, so Chester is an appropriate routeing point.
The Hooton to Manchester day single is £13.30, which is more than the Capenhurst fare, so Hooton is not an appropriate routeing point. The £12 fare is a cheap day single, but there is no cheap day single from Capenhurst to Manchester, so we have to compare the day single fares.
The routeing permissions for Chester to Manchester are: CH+MS, CL and GM.
CH+MS gives:
Chester-Crewe-Wilmslow-Manchester
Chester-Crewe-Wilmslow-Stockport-Manchester
Chester-Crewe-Wilmslow-Stockport-Hazel Grove-Chinley-Romiley-Guide Bridge-Manchester
Chester-Crewe-Wilmslow-Stockport-Hazel Grove-Chinley-Romiley-Manchester

CL gives:
Chester-Runcorn group-Warrington-Earlstown-Eccles-Manchester

GM gives:
Chester-Stockport-Manchester

As far as I am aware, there is no copy of NFM04 on the internet. I got the fares from the GNER website.

Very bizarre that Hooton is not a valid route (it is about 2.25 Miles further) but going via Chester you seem to be able to go via all sorts of exotic routes which are much further?!!

 

[clagmonster]

On that thought. Adding up the distances for the most obvious routes, just in case Liverpool is the shortest (or within 3 miles of it).
Capenhurst-Chester 5.25 miles
Chester-Northwich-Manchester Picc 45.25 miles
Total 50.5 miles

Capenhurst-Chester 5.25 miles
Chester-Warrington-Manchester Picc 40.25 miles
Total 45.5 miles

Capenhurst-Chester 5.25 miles
Chester-Warrington BQ 18.25
Warrington Cen-Manchester Picc 16.5 miles
Total 40 miles

Capenhurst-Liverpool Lime St 12.5 miles
Liverpool LS-Warrington Cen-Manchester Picc 35 miles
Total 47.5 miles

Capenhurst-Liverpool Lime St 12.5 miles
Liverpool LS-Earlstown-Manchester Picc 32.5 miles
Total 45 miles

So the shortest route is 40 miles, and the shortest route via Liverpool is 45 miles, which is 5 miles longer, so is not valid.

I do agree, this is another case where a perfectly sensible route is invalid, yet a completely unreasonable one is valid

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Capenhurst-Chester 5.25 miles
Chester-Warrington BQ 18.25
Warrington Cen-Manchester Picc 16.5 miles
Total 40 miles

So the shortest route is 40 miles, and the shortest route via Liverpool is 45 miles, which is 5 miles longer, so is not valid.

So how does that work since the shortest route, which necessitates a Warrington Bank Quay - Warrington Central transfer, involves a one mile trudge through the town centre (!)

 

[clagmonster]

I quote from the routeing guide:
"CALCULATING SHORTEST DISTANCES
As the shortest route for any journey is always a permitted route, this can be
checked, and the distance between stations calculated, from the National Rail
Timetable. Mileages appear in the station column at the beginning of each
major table, except table 51. To arrive at the throughout distance for travel
between every station by any route, add mileages together for the
component parts of the journey by referring to the relevant timetables."
No referance is made to cases where a walk between stations is required, however in this case it doesn't really matter because if you add on the extra mile walking distance it would still be the shortest route. No where does the routeing guide say that the shortest route can't include transfers between stations.

 

[tony_mac]

The Routeing guide does say

the shortest route served by a regular passenger service

and I suppose you could argue that Warrington Bank Quay to Warrington Central does not fit that description!

I actually think that is too far a walk to be considered an interchange, I know many people who can't comfortably walk that far.

 

[nedchester]

I would therefore say that the shortest distance is:

Capenhurst-Liverpool Lime St 12.5 miles
Liverpool LS-Earlstown-Manchester Picc 32.5 miles
Total 45 miles

closely followed by:

Capenhurst-Chester 5.25 miles
Chester-Warrington-Manchester Picc 40.25 miles
Total 45.5 miles

the walk from Warrington BQ to Central is not a realistic way of calculating the route in my view (It's about a mile walk). Therefore the ticket would be valid via Liverpool.


I suspect this has come about as a result of a price change in single tickets between Capenhurst/Hooton to Manchester in the last fares change (September). It was valid before that date!!!

I will be going to Manchester tomorrow (for the Oldham Loop tour and intend to go one way and back the other!)

 

[John @ home]

the walk from Warrington BQ to Central is not a realistic way of calculating the route in my view (It's about a mile walk). Therefore the ticket would be valid via Liverpool.

Agreed. It was established in 1998 by correspondence with ATOC that passengers may walk between stations on any permitted route, but are required to do so only when this is indicated by the route printed on the ticket.

9: Can a journey involve a walk between stations?
For example, map WA includes both Hertford East and Hertford North, on different lines. Would it be legitimate to travel from Cambridge to London via Stevenage, Hertford North, Hertford East, and then Broxbourne? Or, for that matter, via Stansted Airport, Broxbourne, Hertford East, Hertford North, Stevenage, and then Welwyn? Does it matter if the stations involved are in the same group or not?
http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/routeqn1.html

Qu.9: Can a journey involve a walk between stations?
Some journeys must involve a walk between stations; for example, the fare from Watford Junction to Harpenden is routed "St Albans Abbey" - this must involve a walk between St Albans Abbey and St Albans. As regards permitted routes in the Routeing Guide, there is nothing to prevent a customer using a route that involves a walk between stations (one is not breaking the "no doubling back" rule by doing this).
http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/routeqn2.html

I would therefore say that the shortest distance is:

Capenhurst-Liverpool Lime St 12.5 miles
Liverpool LS-Earlstown-Manchester Picc 32.5 miles
Total 45 miles

closely followed by:

Capenhurst-Chester 5.25 miles
Chester-Warrington-Manchester Picc 40.25 miles
Total 45.5 miles

I agree that the shortest distance in the GB Rail Timetable is 45.0 miles. I think there are six routes where this rule applies: Journeys ... taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route. (http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/nrg_detail.pdf Page F9.) Four of these six routes operate in one direction only.

Capenhurst - Ellesmere Port - (few trains) - Helsby - Newton-le-Willows - Manchester Piccadilly. 45.0 miles
Capenhurst to Moorfields to Newton-le-Willows to Manchester Piccadilly. 45.0 miles
Manchester Piccadilly to Newton-le-Willows to Liverpool Central to Capenhurst. 45.25 miles
Capenhurst - Chester - Helsby - Newton-le-Willows - Manchester Piccadilly. 45.5 miles
Capenhurst to Moorfields to Warrington Central to Manchester Piccadilly. 47.25 miles
Manchester Piccadilly to Warrington Central to Liverpool Central to Capenhurst. 47.5 miles

John

 

[nedchester]

Thanks for confirming all that. Seems that there are gremlins in the NRE fares calculation formula. Therefore as I expect the ticket is valid both ways via Chester and Liverpool (with the Chester one being valid by a variety of route between Chester and Manchester!!)

 

[First class]

On another note, if you get a Chester-Southport ticket on a Sunday, this is valid via Manchester or Liverpool, for just £4.40 return!

This is because a direct train is always a valid route. So people travelling to Manchester on a Sunday, get a ticket to Southport instead!

 

[nedchester]

On another note, if you get a Chester-Southport ticket on a Sunday, this is valid via Manchester or Liverpool, for just £4.40 return!

This is because a direct train is always a valid route. So people travelling to Manchester on a Sunday, get a ticket to Southport instead!

Surely only if you travel on the direct train itself????

 

[yorkie]

Surely only if you travel on the direct train itself????

correct

 

[clagmonster]

John, all that your quote from ATOC states is that passengers can use a route that involves walking between the stations, but they are not forced to other than by any possible routeing on the ticket.
In this case, all Capenhurst to Manchester tickets are route any permitted, so they are not forced by the route on the ticket, but passengers may choose to walk between stations. The option of not walking between stations is provided in the form of the valid routes of going via Chester. To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing to state whether routes that involve walking should be used in the calculation of the shortest route. The walk across Warrington is shown as an interchange on the National Rail website, so I think it is reasonable to take it as a sensible route, and hence I arrive at it being the shortest route.

 

[John @ home]

In this case, all Capenhurst to Manchester tickets are route any permitted, so they are not forced by the route on the ticket, but passengers may choose to walk between stations.

Agreed.

To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing to state whether routes that involve walking should be used in the calculation of the shortest route. The walk across Warrington is shown as an interchange on the National Rail website, so I think it is reasonable to take it as a sensible route, and hence I arrive at it being the shortest route.

It does not appear to me that this approach is consistent with the words in the routeing guide, for example:

Page F1: If a journey does not have an origin routeing point and a destination routeing point, its permitted route is (1) the shortest route served by a regular passenger service or (2) a route no more then 3 miles longer or (3) any other route permitted by an easement.

Page F15: The permitted route is via the shortest distance to the first routeing point over which a scheduled train service runs, then via the permitted route, then via the shortest distance with a scheduled train service from the destination routeing point to the destination.
http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/nrg_detail.pdf

Warrington Bank Quay - Warrington Central is not a route served by a regular passenger service.

No scheduled train service runs directly between Warrington Bank Quay and Warrington Central.

John