Capacity problems Leeds

[jayah]

I can't believe some people don't believe Leeds is at capacity!

Imagine if everything was at least 6 cars!

Regarding Leeds over the long term: who thinks Leeds Central should be rebuilt ?

It would be ideal for Harrogate, Wharf Valley, Aire Valley and Bradford FS services!

The last thing that is needed is 3 stations what with HS2.

Leeds like much of the north is full of tiny trains. Make them longer before spending £bn on building huge new stations on prime development land.

Start at 8 cars not 6.

 

[tbtc]

It's not just the villages though. The route gets quite a lot of through passengers these days (the majority whenever I'm on it). That said, combining with an S&C service could release a path as you say.

At the moment the "Lancaster" service has a valuable path into Leeds in the morning rush hour (arr 08:41) and a valuable departure from Leeds in the evening rush hour (dep 17:26) - both of which could soak up hundreds more passengers with a four coach 333 or the proposed six coach 331s (than running a Pacer on them).

If the Lancaster services were retimed to be coupled to S&C services then they'd still have decent Leeds times (arr 08:33, dep 16:48/ 18:18) but we could use the current Lancaster paths for longer EMUs.

Instead, we have a S&C service arriving into Leeds within fifteen minutes of a Lancaster service, which means two short DMUs and no Skipton EMUs between them. Just seems a waste of resources, given the finite number of paths (and the fact that we'll have plenty of EMUs going spare in the next couple of years - including the Northern 321/322s)

I don't. Leeds has a lot of connecting passengers and it would be a retrograde step to split services into two stations. The Hauptbahnhof concept works well and we shouldn't repeat the mistake of building multiple stations in city centres made by our railway pioneers.

Leeds station has room for a good 4 or 5 more platforms to the north up to the River Aire (the old Leeds Wellington site), and HS2 will add another 5-6 platforms. No one would be suggesting building a station on the Leeds Central site were it not for the fact there used to be a station there.

True (and nobody would be suggesting half of the things on this Forum had Victorian entrepreneurs/ BR not done is many years ago - we are seemingly doomed to only be able to suggest "old" solutions)

The last thing that is needed is 3 stations what with HS2.

Leeds like much of the north is full of tiny trains. Make them longer before spending £bn on building huge new stations on prime development land.

Start at 8 cars not 6.

Yes!

(that's what's so frustrating about this - we don't need mega-projects, we just need simpler timetables and longer trains)

 

[quantinghome]

Leeds like much of the north is full of tiny trains. Make them longer before spending £bn on building huge new stations on prime development land.
Start at 8 cars not 6.

You're going to have to build lots of new platforms.

8 car trains --> 1 per platform (vs up to 3 at present) --> more platforms.
Say you make all trains 8 car on the Harrogate, Wharfedale and Airedale lines. That alone would require several new platforms (i.e. recreating Wellington Station).

What about the rest of the station? Platforms 7,10,13,14 and 17 would no longer be useable. Could they be extended? You could knock 13 and 14 together fairly easily. The others would require a major rebuild of the station approaches = £££.

The HS2 station will take trains from London and Birmingham, possibly Sheffield (?), so that may free up some space. But that would be immediately absorbed by NPR, even if the aspirational 6 trains per hour is cut down.

I suspect we may need to look at tram-conversion for some lines to relieve Leeds station in the future.

 

[yorksrob]

You're going to have to build lots of new platforms.

8 car trains --> 1 per platform (vs up to 3 at present) --> more platforms.
Say you make all trains 8 car on the Harrogate, Wharfedale and Airedale lines. That alone would require several new platforms (i.e. recreating Wellington Station).

What about the rest of the station? Platforms 7,10,13,14 and 17 would no longer be useable. Could they be extended? You could knock 13 and 14 together fairly easily. The others would require a major rebuild of the station approaches = £££.

The HS2 station will take trains from London and Birmingham, possibly Sheffield (?), so that may free up some space. But that would be immediately absorbed by NPR, even if the aspirational 6 trains per hour is cut down.

I suspect we may need to look at tram-conversion for some lines to relieve Leeds station in the future.

15 and 16 rarely seem to be occupied by two trains at once, and the transpennine route's been crying out for longer trains for ever.

There's definitely room to extend 17 along the viaduct. Cramped but do-able

 

[Ken H]

At the moment the "Lancaster" service has a valuable path into Leeds in the morning rush hour (arr 08:41) and a valuable departure from Leeds in the evening rush hour (dep 17:26) - both of which could soak up hundreds more passengers with a four coach 333 or the proposed six coach 331s (than running a Pacer on them).

If the Lancaster services were retimed to be coupled to S&C services then they'd still have decent Leeds times (arr 08:33, dep 16:48/ 18:18) but we could use the current Lancaster paths for longer EMUs.

Instead, we have a S&C service arriving into Leeds within fifteen minutes of a Lancaster service, which means two short DMUs and no Skipton EMUs between them. Just seems a waste of resources, given the finite number of paths (and the fact that we'll have plenty of EMUs going spare in the next couple of years - including the Northern 321/322s)

...

We must remember there is quite a good contra flow commuting to lancaster. The lady next door to me does. Lancaster is a busy place, and the Lune valley is prime commuter belt. Dunno if people commute to lanc from East of Skipton tho.

I would join/split trains at Hellifield. Train from Bentham with its stop at Long Preston first, train from Carlisle attaches from behind. Settle Jct - Hellifield is a short section, and I think there are IB's* too.
Do you need station staff where trains are joined/split?

*IB = intermediate block

 

[TheBigD]

We must remember there is quite a good contra flow commuting to lancaster. The lady next door to me does. Lancaster is a busy place, and the Lune valley is prime commuter belt. Dunno if people commute to lanc from East of Skipton tho.

I would join/split trains at Hellifield. Train from Bentham with its stop at Long Preston first, train from Carlisle attaches from behind. Settle Jct - Hellifield is a short section, and I think there are IB's* too.
Do you need station staff where trains are joined/split?

*IB = intermediate block

Out of interest has usage increased since the extra Bentham line services were introduced? Commuting in to Lancaster still seems to be difficult with no arrivals between 0632 and 0915 though a 1745 return seems to be perfect.

 

[The Ham]

The last thing that is needed is 3 stations what with HS2.

Leeds like much of the north is full of tiny trains. Make them longer before spending £bn on building huge new stations on prime development land.

Start at 8 cars not 6.

If your current platforms can take two or three little trains and you wish to extend then to a point where they reach need their own platform (unless there's platforms which can take 16+ coaches) then there's going to be a need for more platform space.

By building HS2 platforms and removing the LNER services you effectively gain 1 while new platform for local services.

If these local services are 6 (20m) coach services you can still fit two into a platform at a time.

Now given they are local services they can have shorter turn around times, meaning 3 an hour rather than two, so that's 6 services which benefit.

However those services had been taking up platform space elsewhere which can now be used by other services to make them longer. Which then doubles the number of services which can be 6 coaches long to 12 services.

That's 12 services an hour which could be 6 coaches long by the removal of just two long distance trains. In reality is likely to be a bit lower, but even 9 trains at 6 coaches long would be a significant improvement, especially if those services are currently 2/3 coaches long.

Once NPR happens and removes more of the longer distance regional services to the HS2 platforms then there's more scope for more longer services.

Whilst I agree that short services should be lengthened rather than more short services provided, there's advantages to there being at least 2tph from most stations.

 

[yorksrob]

If your current platforms can take two or three little trains and you wish to extend then to a point where they reach need their own platform (unless there's platforms which can take 16+ coaches) then there's going to be a need for more platform space.

By building HS2 platforms and removing the LNER services you effectively gain 1 while new platform for local services.

If these local services are 6 (20m) coach services you can still fit two into a platform at a time.

Now given they are local services they can have shorter turn around times, meaning 3 an hour rather than two, so that's 6 services which benefit.

However those services had been taking up platform space elsewhere which can now be used by other services to make them longer. Which then doubles the number of services which can be 6 coaches long to 12 services.

That's 12 services an hour which could be 6 coaches long by the removal of just two long distance trains. In reality is likely to be a bit lower, but even 9 trains at 6 coaches long would be a significant improvement, especially if those services are currently 2/3 coaches long.

Once NPR happens and removes more of the longer distance regional services to the HS2 platforms then there's more scope for more longer services.

Whilst I agree that short services should be lengthened rather than more short services provided, there's advantages to there being at least 2tph from most stations.

Six is also predominantly used for London services.

 

[Ken H]

are the problems at leeds due to the fact so many trains run late, thereby missing paths. maybe addressing that would make leeds more efficient.
why do trains present at leeds late? unrealistic timetable, or congestion at junctions causing knock on delays.
maybe putting in grade separated junctions far away from Leeds would make station working more efficient.

 

[northernchris]

are the problems at leeds due to the fact so many trains run late, thereby missing paths. maybe addressing that would make leeds more efficient.
why do trains present at leeds late? unrealistic timetable, or congestion at junctions causing knock on delays.
maybe putting in grade separated junctions far away from Leeds would make station working more efficient.

From my own experience it tends to be one or two late trains which then causes those which are on time to wait for their route in to and out of the station. There's also some bizarre regulating which goes on at times especially with the Northern stoppers to York and Selby which can be delayed for up to 10 minutes for late TPE services only to then be let out just ahead of the next express which then causes more late trains

 

[Halifaxlad]

Regarding the splitting/joining of trains at Skipton. If the Aire Valley was ran by these 4 car 350/2’s that also share the same 3+2 seating, then it would be possible to run two, two units in tandem possibly for both the S+C and the Bentham Line. Obviously these would have to be bio-modes that Porterbrook are in the process of converting. This could also be a solution for Skipton to Colne.

 

[trainmananthon]

I was at Leeds on Friday for a brief period. There was a 3 car 158 parked in platform 10 when I arrived and a pair of 153s arrived on top of it whilst I was awaiting departure of my train off platform 13. Only issue is we couldn’t go anywhere because the 153s on top of the 158 was too long for the platform and was subsequently beyond the signal, meaning nothing between platforms 7 and 13 could move until they had been shunted out of the way.

After about 15 minutes it eventually got shunted back out and we were good to go.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I was at Leeds on Friday for a brief period. There was a 3 car 158 parked in platform 10 when I arrived and a pair of 153s arrived on top of it whilst I was awaiting departure of my train off platform 13. Only issue is we couldn’t go anywhere because the 153s on top of the 158 was too long for the platform and was subsequently beyond the signal, meaning nothing between platforms 7 and 13 could move until they had been shunted out of the way.

After about 15 minutes it eventually got shunted back out and we were good to go.

I have known that to happen occasionally, its a shame that Leeds isn't much like Sheffield i.e. most if not all the platforms about the same length and level with one another. The platforms really want straightening and lengthening so at least the majority of them are equal lengths (Yes I know it will cost £) and a load of dedicated terminating platforms preferably on the opposite side of the river.



Got ze crayons out again!

 

[Eric]

They also need to sort out the congestion at the gates. Having 150 plus people in the peaks all stood directly in front of the gates looking at the platform 8/6 monitors for the London bound train is ridiculous.

 

[Eric]

Why can't Leeds have dedicated platforms for trains?

The Ilkley and Skipton have started using 10, 11 and 12 again due to the congestion on 1,2,3,4,5 and 6.

 

[yorksrob]

At the moment, the best thing Northern could would be to retain all the 153's and use them to strengthen all the inadequate two carriage services.

Nevertheless, I'm sure we'll be stuck with inadequate two carriage trains after everythings been replaced.

 

[quantinghome]

They also need to sort out the congestion at the gates. Having 150 plus people in the peaks all stood directly in front of the gates looking at the platform 8/6 monitors for the London bound train is ridiculous.

A new gateline is being installed as we speak.

 

[Bantamzen]

The last thing that is needed is 3 stations what with HS2.

Leeds like much of the north is full of tiny trains. Make them longer before spending £bn on building huge new stations on prime development land.

Start at 8 cars not 6.

Yes!

(that's what's so frustrating about this - we don't need mega-projects, we just need simpler timetables and longer trains)

But it would be a mega-project, as most of the stations would need extending, signal moving etc. So instead on one big project, it would be lots of little ones that amounted to a big project. Don't get me wrong, I would much prefer long trains on the Aire / Wharfe services, but its no small project to get some of the platform lengths extended to accommodate longer units, especially at somewhere like Shipley! And of course long trains into Leeds are going to need.... more platform capacity!

They also need to sort out the congestion at the gates. Having 150 plus people in the peaks all stood directly in front of the gates looking at the platform 8/6 monitors for the London bound train is ridiculous.

This is part of the ongoing works taking place right now. The new ticket line will be further back from the existing one, and extend towards where the ATMs are currently situated, over the area previously used by the coffee shops.

Why can't Leeds have dedicated platforms for trains?

The Ilkley and Skipton have started using 10, 11 and 12 again due to the congestion on 1,2,3,4,5 and 6.

I'm not sure what you mean by dedicated lines? Leeds serves a lot of destinations, so trying to dedicate platforms to one or two services would be planning fun, not!

 

[quantinghome]

Why can't Leeds have dedicated platforms for trains?

The Ilkley and Skipton have started using 10, 11 and 12 again due to the congestion on 1,2,3,4,5 and 6.

I think you've answered your own question. It will only get worse as train lengths are increased and stacking becomes more difficult.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Just to point out that building some more terminating platforms upon the other side of the river/rebuilding Leeds Central doesn't necessarily mean it would be a separate station. If you did it right it could easily be directly connected through the Western Concourse! Obviously you would have to walk a little further depending on where your travelling, but a new station could have travelators built into the middle of the platforms.

 

[DarloRich]

Just to point out that building some more terminating platforms upon the other side of the river/rebuilding Leeds Central doesn't necessarily mean it would be a separate station. If you did it right it could easily be directly connected through the Western Concourse! Obviously you would have to walk a little further depending on where your travelling, but a new station could have travelators built into the middle of the platforms.

In the real world i think that suggesting knocking down a recently redeveloped part of Leeds City Centre is NOT going to be acceptable.

 

[Halifaxlad]

In the real world i think that suggesting knocking down a recently redeveloped part of Leeds City Centre is NOT going to be acceptable.

I would have thought in the real world that any dramatic increase in capacity could only be achieved through new infrastructure unless of course every train becomes double decked ? Obviously it's far from ideal although ain't that what the Victorians did ? Besides they're is supposed to be the Leeds South Bank scheme, that unless HS2 is cancelled will have a high speed station in the middle of it. I think given the choice, those occupants probably wouldn't mind moving. Perhaps LCC should start buying up the land around it before this new station gets built and the value increases.

 

[Bantamzen]

Just to point out that building some more terminating platforms upon the other side of the river/rebuilding Leeds Central doesn't necessarily mean it would be a separate station. If you did it right it could easily be directly connected through the Western Concourse! Obviously you would have to walk a little further depending on where your travelling, but a new station could have travelators built into the middle of the platforms.
View attachment 64027

In the real world i think that suggesting knocking down a recently redeveloped part of Leeds City Centre is NOT going to be acceptable.

Especially as some of the new developments are going to be part of a new government hub!!

I would have thought in the real world that any dramatic increase in capacity could only be achieved through new infrastructure unless of course every train becomes double decked ?

Obviously it's far from ideal although ain't that what the Victorians did ? Besides they're is supposed to be the Leeds South Bank scheme, that unless HS2 is cancelled will have a high speed station in the middle of it. I think given the choice, those occupants probably wouldn't mind moving. Perhaps LCC should start buying up the land around it before this new station gets built and the value increases.

Much of the land you've highlighted is already pretty much earmarked for development, and the prices already high. Plus even if all that land could be freed up, you still need to get that alignment from the west/south across the existing Aire / Wharfe / Harrogate alignments, and on a cursory glance the old height of the viaduct would not have been high enough to allow for the electric wires, so you'd need an even greater gradient to get across. By no means impossible, but adding all the time to the cost.

 

[Grumpy]

The Ilkley and Skipton have started using 10, 11 and 12 again due to the congestion on 1,2,3,4,5 and 6.

Looking at Realtime trains for yesterday, whilst there certainly were a few Airedale/Wharfedale/Harrogate line trains using the higher numbered platforms, these were either because they were formed by ecs from Neville Hill or as a result of stock being switched between routes eg an EMU previously running Doncaster services being switched to Airedale, or a DMU off a Chester service being switched to Morecambe. Nothing to do with congestion

 

[DarloRich]

I would have thought in the real world that any dramatic increase in capacity could only be achieved through new infrastructure unless of course every train becomes double decked ? Obviously it's far from ideal although ain't that what the Victorians did ? Besides they're is supposed to be the Leeds South Bank scheme, that unless HS2 is cancelled will have a high speed station in the middle of it. I think given the choice, those occupants probably wouldn't mind moving. Perhaps LCC should start buying up the land around it before this new station gets built and the value increases.

I think you and others need to be realistic. Can we also stop saying "well the Victorians did it". The world was very different in those days. Also there is no land to buy up. It is already owned by developers or built on.

The level of crayoning in this thread is comic.

 

[hwl]

The level of crayoning in this thread is comic.

Agreed. It will be interesting to see the impact of P0 and longer trains in the short term and some better performance and throughput to the east up on electrification in the Medium term.
It should be possible to address many issues in practice without the use of crayons.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I think you and others need to be realistic. Can we also stop saying "well the Victorians did it". The world was very different in those days. Also there is no land to buy up. It is already owned by developers or built on.

The level of crayoning in this thread is comic.

If this is your view, then what is your view on HS2 ?

 

[DarloRich]

If this is your view, then what is your view on HS2 ?

If we are bring blunt it is going to run through a much less well developed part of Leeds which will cost less to compulsorily purchase. I remain skeptical it will ever happen.

 

[yorksrob]

I believe there's certainly room to extend platform 17 along the viaduct a substantial distance. Being able to stack two, full length three carriage trains in there would provide a significant capacity boost.

 

[matacaster]

We must remember there is quite a good contra flow commuting to lancaster. The lady next door to me does. Lancaster is a busy place, and the Lune valley is prime commuter belt. Dunno if people commute to lanc from East of Skipton tho.

I would join/split trains at Hellifield. Train from Bentham with its stop at Long Preston first, train from Carlisle attaches from behind. Settle Jct - Hellifield is a short section, and I think there are IB's* too.
Do you need station staff where trains are joined/split?

*IB = intermediate block

I agree that Hellifield would be a good place to split / join trains. I would go further and suggest that extending the catenary to Hellifield would mean that electric trains could start / terminate there. But Hellifield is tiny! Yes, but if it had a commuter service, it is well placed to provide cheaper housing for workers in Leeds as I suspect land prices will be lower there, its just like developers want - green fields some fairly flat and not a particularly attractive place at present. This is exactly how the Southern railway built up new towns from small villages around London.