Capacity problems Leeds

[Eric]

Just been in Leeds and I see the car park closes on 7th May. Interestingly to see was two 170s parked up in platform one, a 158 parked up in platform six and a 322 parked up in platform five. I presume these services are for strengthening later on in the peaks. Just seems to be a very fine margin and high risk having all these trains parked up.

 

[hwl]

Just been in Leeds and I see the car park closes on 7th May. Interestingly to see was two 170s parked up in platform one, a 158 parked up in platform six and a 322 parked up in platform five. I presume these services are for strengthening later on in the peaks. Just seems to be a very fine margin and high risk having all these trains parked up.

It would make sense install some stabling sidings just North of Armley Jn on the Harrogate lines before they cross the Aire so units could be kept out of the way and cleaned in the inter-peak period? (or during disruption)

 

[Andyh82]

The 158 won’t have been ‘parked up’, as this is one of the main platforms LNER use.

I’m not sure what problem parking those other units up at the buffers causes? Platform 1 is very long.

 

[Ken H]

By and large this already happens. Platforms 1-5 are generally used by Harrogate / Wharfe / Aire services, P6 & 8 mainly by LNER & XC with a few others, P9, 10, 11, 12 used primarily for through services to & from the Wakefield & Calder services & their terminators, with P13, 15 & 16 used by TPE through & terminators & P17 for Castleford services. (The new Nottingham-Bradford will presumably use the middle set of platforms and need minimal crossovers through the throat, leaving along the same route that it arrived via Wakefield Westgate).

I do find it interesting though that you are advocating further electrification, presumably starting with the full North TP / York / Hull and then perhaps the routes out towards Huddersfield, Calder & Harrogate? I would certainly welcome that although it would be considerably more expensive that provisioning for a couple more platforms, which would require the devastation of nothing more than a ground level car park and some new track / signal work at the western end (which is going to be needed anyway).

Leeds - knaresborough would be a good one to wire. Use bimodes on them then the sparse bit to Yorks does not need wiring. But get the acceleration from electric traction on the busy bit. especially leaving Leeds.

Get driver opening the doors on terminating trains. Speed up turnrounds.

 

[thejuggler]

Papers for the next WYCA Transport Committee are now online with comment on Leeds situation.

https://westyorkshire.moderngov.co....5 - Rail matters affecting West Yorkshire.pdf

 

[Eric]

Papers for the next WYCA Transport Committee are now online with comment on Leeds situation.

https://westyorkshire.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s11634/Item 5 - Rail matters affecting West Yorkshire.pdf

So there you have it. Platform 0 will bring zero benefits if platform 17 isn't lengthened.

 

[Eric]

I don't know why they just done get rid of the car park and build three new bays and letter them A, B and C. Use these for the Harrogate and Aire Valley services.

 

[Sceptre]

The fact that Platform 17 needs lengthening is one of those things that's obvious but everyone seems to overlook; after all, Platform 17's length is pretty much the reason why they can't run a more intensive service on the Cas lines (as the platform isn't big enough for two trains)

 

[Ploughman]

Is there any mileage in the idea of using the viaduct line from the station then when reaching the Wakefield line turn right then pick up the closed avoiding line to access the Bradford line?
Curves might be a bit on the tight side but it would free up paths on the 6 track area.

 

[Ken H]

Is there any mileage in the idea of using the viaduct line from the station then when reaching the Wakefield line turn right then pick up the closed avoiding line to access the Bradford line?
Curves might be a bit on the tight side but it would free up paths on the 6 track area.

why was the viaduct line scrapped anyway? I seem to remember it went when they electrified to Leeds.
When they first electrified, they kept the first bit as a headshunt. maybe they could reinstate that for stabling units.

 

[matacaster]

Is there space further down from Platform 17 for two or three short (2 or 3-coach?) platforms - think there used to be short sidings there many years ago and now transformers or signalling equipment? Yes, even more distant than Platform 17 from main station concourse, but nothing a travelator starting from the bridge couldn't fix.

 

[Ken H]

How about reopeneing the entrance in New Station street. Back in the day there used to be a bloke there with a portis ticket machine, so you could take a short cut onto Boar Lane.

This is the view from the street
https://goo.gl/maps/JCpCNYdhdzbtErgd7

 

[Welshman]

Is there any mileage in the idea of using the viaduct line from the station then when reaching the Wakefield line turn right then pick up the closed avoiding line to access the Bradford line?
Curves might be a bit on the tight side but it would free up paths on the 6 track area.

An interesting idea, but, as far as I can gather, the problem is platform capacity rather than congestion on the 6-track section.
To access the viaduct line would mean Bradford Interchange/Calder Valley trains using the higher-numbered platforms, possibly causing more congestion there, and then on reaching the Wakefield line, turning right would require extensive earthworks as the lines are on a different level [they did turn left towards Wakefield at one stage, but not right!]. Then using the avoiding line would require a few trees being uprooted, but the track might still be there under them all, for, as far as I remember, the line was never officially closed, causing an outcry at the time!

 

[Ploughman]

An interesting idea, but, as far as I can gather, the problem is platform capacity rather than congestion on the 6-track section.
To access the viaduct line would mean Bradford Interchange/Calder Valley trains using the higher-numbered platforms, possibly causing more congestion there, and then on reaching the Wakefield line, turning right would require extensive earthworks as the lines are on a different level [they did turn left towards Wakefield at one stage, but not right!]. Then using the avoiding line would require a few trees being uprooted, but the track might still be there under them all, for, as far as I remember, the line was never officially closed, causing an outcry at the time!

Trackwork was in place buried in vegetation at the Bradford end of the chord about 10 - 12 years back last time I was on track down there.
Might need a bit of renewal to make it fit for use.

 

[jayah]

The problems at Leeds are common to a lot of other places north of Watford and the solution isn't to build a 12 track viaduct costing ££bn.

Too many tiny trains.

London gets the money because the trains are maxed out on length and height so you can only add capacity be removing seats, adding a second deck or digging new tunnels. This simply isn't true in Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and others that are plagued by 2-3 coach micro trains.

Looking east, the off peak pattern is 9tph 4x TPE from York - 2x Newcastle, 1x, Scarborough, 1x Middlesbrough then a fast Hull, slow Selby, 2 more Northerns from York one fast, one slow and 1 XC.

This is not especially high density for a 2 line railway, but already far more than what is needed and not one of is them anything close to 'full length' - does Newcastle - Leeds really need 3tph and a fourth from Middlesbrough? The timetable needs what Gardeners World might call a rejuvenating prune.

The stabling in west facing platforms is far from ideal. Aside from the narrow car park it is tricky as the old vacant plots around the river to the north of the site also happen to be prime city centre development land. There are probably easier options like shipping sets off to Huddersfield, Bradford or Wakefield between the peaks if they really can't get to Neville Hill or Holbeck but again a more disciplined approach to network capacity is required to force down less palatable options rather than offer something to the operators that works on paper but not in real life.

 

[Andyh82]

The problems at Leeds are common to a lot of other places north of Watford and the solution isn't to build a 12 track viaduct costing ££bn.

Too many tiny trains.

Is it not the complete opposite?

The trains are now not as tiny as they were, so two trains are no longer able to occupy the same bay as they used to do. This is the problem with Platform 17, there has been no notable frequency increase in over a decade.

 

[yorksrob]

Is it not the complete opposite?

The trains are now not as tiny as they were, so two trains are no longer able to occupy the same bay as they used to do. This is the problem with Platform 17, there has been no notable frequency increase in over a decade.

I stand on platform 17 almost every weekday, and there does appear to be the space to extend it by a couple of carriages (on the exising line).

 

[deltic08]

surely this stacking of trains is asking for dealy. If they get in the platform in the wrong order sorting that muddle out would be fun. But they always did that at Leeds. Even in the 70's the then platforms 1 2 and 3 (used for harrogate, ilkely,skipton and Bradford Interchange) were always stuffed with stacked trains. and the odd vacuum braked van too.

(1,2 and 3 were under a smaller overhead roof. 4 was a bay at the east end. 5 was the long through. 6 was the through opposite it with 7 as a cut out at the west end. 8 and 9 were throughs, 10 and 11 were bays and 12 was a through outside the trainshed.

There was a non-platform road between platform 2 and 3 that was used for stabling during the day.

 

[deltic08]

I stand on platform 17 almost every weekday, and there does appear to be the space to extend it by a couple of carriages (on the exising line).

Extend the bay along platform 16 or extend at the country end?

 

[Ken H]

There was a non-platform road between platform 2 and 3 that was used for stabling during the day.

usually had a few vans

there were 2 roads I seem to remember. The points where they joined were hand operated from a ground frame. But then there was a poer operated trap point with a shunt signal to leave those sidings.

1,2 & 3 also had a contraption that was a bar about 3 meters long that fouled the flangeway. I assumed it was some sort of retarder to stop buffer stop collisions but I dont really know. The modernisation plan DMUs all used to be coaxed right up to the buffers - presumably to make sure another train would fit.
also had the zigzag of weld on the railhead to make sure the track circuits worked.

 

[deltic08]

S&C used to go from 6 in the late 70's early 80's. (5 was the 'main' through platform next to the barriers. 6 was a shorter through with a cutout at west end (Plat 7)

Because S & C were loco hauled with six or seven coaches empty from Neville Hill or services from Nottingham or Glasgow needing to run round at that time.

 

[yorksrob]

Extend the bay along platform 16 or extend at the country end?

Extend 16 along the county end. Some would need building out over the viaduct, but this will be easy for a platform.

 

[deltic08]

usually had a few vans

there were 2 roads I seem to remember. The points where they joined were hand operated from a ground frame. But then there was a poer operated trap point with a shunt signal to leave those sidings.

1,2 & 3 also had a contraption that was a bar about 3 meters long that fouled the flangeway. I assumed it was some sort of retarder to stop buffer stop collisions but I dont really know. The modernisation plan DMUs all used to be coaxed right up to the buffers - presumably to make sure another train would fit.
also had the zigzag of weld on the railhead to make sure the track circuits worked.

I thought there were two roads but not sure from memory. I should have known as I commuted from Harrogate for nearly 7 years when at University in the 70s.

 

[Ken H]

I thought there were two roads but not sure from memory. I should have known as I commuted from Harrogate for nearly 7 years when at University in the 70s.

probably saw you on plat 1/2 as I went to Skipton!

 

[billio]

This might be rather controversial but building another central station in Leeds should reduce the number of passengers using the existing station. For example if it is built in the March Lane area I suggest there are many local or regional passengers who might prefer to use a station there rather than walking from the existing station.
I, and I expect many others, use the most appropriate Manchester station - Piccadilly, Oxford Road or Victoria - depending on where I am going in the city or the connection I want to make.
To a certain extent I agree with the point about longer trains but this is likely to overload the facilities at the existing station.

 

[jayah]

It would make sense install some stabling sidings just North of Armley Jn on the Harrogate lines before they cross the Aire so units could be kept out of the way and cleaned in the inter-peak period? (or during disruption)

The difficulty is you would need to pay someone to either stay on the units all those long hours or walk to/from Leeds along the track (if there is a safe route?) or failing that taxi drivers to/from the nearest access point.

 

[jayah]

This might be rather controversial but building another central station in Leeds should reduce the number of passengers using the existing station. For example if it is built in the March Lane area I suggest there are many local or regional passengers who might prefer to use a station there rather than walking from the existing station.
I, and I expect many others, use the most appropriate Manchester station - Piccadilly, Oxford Road or Victoria - depending on where I am going in the city or the connection I want to make.
To a certain extent I agree with the point about longer trains but this is likely to overload the facilities at the existing station.

This sounds a bit like the Southern entrance. It cost ££m but gets so little use it scarcely scratches the surface of the issue occuring around the main gateline. Opening the place up in the direction of Boar Lane would be far more effective.

 

[jayah]

Is it not the complete opposite?

The trains are now not as tiny as they were, so two trains are no longer able to occupy the same bay as they used to do. This is the problem with Platform 17, there has been no notable frequency increase in over a decade.

What is now Platform 13 used to be the Castleford line Bay. Platform 17 always looked like an afterthought especially given how long and unused 16 was before it was added. And that was before XC halved the length of their trains...

The pre-rebuild service was 2tph one to Knottingley and one to Sheffield via Barnsley calling at all halts. So in fact the off peak service has doubled to 4tph with the Sheffield semi-fast that shown to Lincoln and the Nottingham!

 

[deltic08]

Is there any mileage in the idea of using the viaduct line from the station then when reaching the Wakefield line turn right then pick up the closed avoiding line to access the Bradford line?
Curves might be a bit on the tight side but it would free up paths on the 6 track area.

The viaduct originally carried Leeds-Huddersfield trains and should be reopened for TPE as it would in effect separate platforms 15/16 from approach lines A and B by a bit of new build viaduct at the eastern end. The western end would have to cross the Wakefield Westgate line and rejoin the current Huddersfield line near the former Farnley shed but that would need purchase of industrial properties along the original closed route and a new embankment.

For the viaduct to be used for London trains would require a severe curve and 25mph speed limit where currently speed limit is as high as 60mph.

 

[Ken H]

This sounds a bit like the Southern entrance. It cost ££m but gets so little use it scarcely scratches the surface of the issue occuring around the main gateline. Opening the place up in the direction of Boar Lane would be far more effective.

like the old entrance in New Station street. Used to be a handy short cut. Just under City house.