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Capacity problems Leeds

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Eric

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I'm pretty sure that the configuration of 13 and 14 are such that they could allow for another set of through tracks with minimal effort (although you might have to close the centre track between 11 and 12), which could theoretically allow HS2 to use 15 & 16, although you'd probably need to four-track the Marsh Lane viaduct too.

I'm also pretty sure there is space on the northern end for another bay after 0 gets built, which means you can shift a lot of the terminators northwards.

Also, personally, I'd look at reopening Cas–Garforth to cut down on the conflicting movements from 17 to the Wakey lines, although that may be a bit of a pipe-dream.

There's a lot of space when you think about between 12 and 15, I think you could just about squeeze another island out of it but that doesn't stop the problem that's occurring over on 1,2,3,4 and 5 with all the local trains having difficulty finding platform space without blocking other services.
 
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Sceptre

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There's a lot of space when you think about between 12 and 15, I think you could just about squeeze another island out of it but that doesn't stop the problem that's occurring over on 1,2,3,4 and 5 with all the local trains having difficulty finding platform space without blocking other services.

The configuration of the western approach isn't too bad; the biggest problem is that KGX trains have to hold up BDI trains, because none of the bays south of the barriers are long enough for a IC125/225/Azuma.
 

Andyh82

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Why they have now started stacking trains on top of one another and blocking them is an answer I'd like to know?

They haven't. This was obviously an error by the signaller.

Was your experience during normal running or was there disruption of some sort?

Is there any evidence that 'more 333s' are running from platforms other than 1-5, or have you just happened to see workings that come off/go onto Neville Hill?
 

tbtc

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Rather than getting crayons out and designing more platforms, we could at least try to use the existing infrastructure better by turning Leeds into separate parallel stations, which are operationally independent, so that more use can be made from what we have.

Instead, the new services over the next year or two will include regular daytime services like London - Harrogate, London - Bradford, Halifax - Hull, Nottingham - Bradford (plus some token things like London - Huddersfield which won't run during the daytime).

If we terminated all of the Harrogate/ Ilkley/ Shipley/ Bradford Interchange (i.e. Calder Valley) services at Leeds then we could operate these separate to the other services in and out of Leeds.

If we went one further and chopped the XC service at Leeds (Leeds - Newcastle will still be two TPE services per hour, Leeds - Edinburgh will be one TPE service per hour, extend XC's "via Doncaster" services to Edinburgh in replacement if you must) then all of the daytime services using the eastern end of Leeds station would be coming off the Cottingley line - i.e. that's then operationally separate from the rest of the station.

The Hunslet services are already operationally separate (if you ignore the once-a-week service onto the S&C), this way the Wakefield Westgate services would also be operationally separate at Leeds.

That gives you a lot more platform capacity as you aren't complicating things by running regular services through the eastern throat to/from Harrogate/ Bradford/ Halifax or trying to run regular reversals at Leeds (Nottingham - Bradford).

If you think the station has problems now, try doing nothing with the infrastructure and waiting for all of these new complicated services to add to the heady mix of delays from every other line!
 

edwin_m

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I'm pretty sure that the configuration of 13 and 14 are such that they could allow for another set of through tracks with minimal effort (although you might have to close the centre track between 11 and 12), which could theoretically allow HS2 to use 15 & 16, although you'd probably need to four-track the Marsh Lane viaduct too.
That sound like quite a lot of moving of track and platforms, and as the whole lot is built on a viaduct (or more likely several viaducts) there may be some places where the structure can't support a track. Hence my view that the best thing would be to bite the bullet, demolish the fairly nondescript buildings to the south and put in a new viaduct with a modern long straight platform. NPR might only need a new island with a track each side, but to accommodate HS2 as well without the proposed north-south platforms would require six or seven east-west platforms.
 

edwin_m

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Rather than getting crayons out and designing more platforms, we could at least try to use the existing infrastructure better by turning Leeds into separate parallel stations, which are operationally independent, so that more use can be made from what we have.
This is surely more about throat capacity than platform capacity? Although something like a Nottingham-Bradford crosses throat tracks, it will use less platform capacity than a terminating Nottingham and a terminating Bradford.
 

cactustwirly

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Rather than getting crayons out and designing more platforms, we could at least try to use the existing infrastructure better by turning Leeds into separate parallel stations, which are operationally independent, so that more use can be made from what we have.

Instead, the new services over the next year or two will include regular daytime services like London - Harrogate, London - Bradford, Halifax - Hull, Nottingham - Bradford (plus some token things like London - Huddersfield which won't run during the daytime).

If we terminated all of the Harrogate/ Ilkley/ Shipley/ Bradford Interchange (i.e. Calder Valley) services at Leeds then we could operate these separate to the other services in and out of Leeds.

If we went one further and chopped the XC service at Leeds (Leeds - Newcastle will still be two TPE services per hour, Leeds - Edinburgh will be one TPE service per hour, extend XC's "via Doncaster" services to Edinburgh in replacement if you must) then all of the daytime services using the eastern end of Leeds station would be coming off the Cottingley line - i.e. that's then operationally separate from the rest of the station.

The Hunslet services are already operationally separate (if you ignore the once-a-week service onto the S&C), this way the Wakefield Westgate services would also be operationally separate at Leeds.

That gives you a lot more platform capacity as you aren't complicating things by running regular services through the eastern throat to/from Harrogate/ Bradford/ Halifax or trying to run regular reversals at Leeds (Nottingham - Bradford).

If you think the station has problems now, try doing nothing with the infrastructure and waiting for all of these new complicated services to add to the heady mix of delays from every other line!

Surely if you terminate more services at Leeds then you're actually making the problem worse?
Surely the way to solve the issue, is to extend more services through to York/Selby etc
 

Eric

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They haven't. This was obviously an error by the signaller.

Was your experience during normal running or was there disruption of some sort?

Is there any evidence that 'more 333s' are running from platforms other than 1-5, or have you just happened to see workings that come off/go onto Neville Hill?

I have caught trains to Bradford Forster Square off platform 12 on at least three occasions now. I've also seen trains to Ilkley and Skipton go off 8 and 10.

The time it went off 12 and I asked the conductor said there was no room in the bays to park, it was from 12.
 

deltic08

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The electric horseshoe was an idea put forward by GNER. LNER's plans for serving Harrogate and Bradford might involve some trains coming into Leeds from the east. I'm not sure tbh.
Only if they operate bimodes this way until Leeds-Micklefield is quadrupled and Selby is electrified.
 

Andyh82

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I’ve had a look on real time trains (for next Monday)

All Bradford FS’s are allocated platforms 1 to 5

All Ilkley’s are allocated 1 to 5 except the 6:38 (6), 7:03 (11), 17:47 (9)

All Skipton’s are allocated 1 to 5 except for the 8:56 (11), 9:54 (10), 10:54 (8), 17:18 (11), 17:41 (6)
 

Eric

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I’ve had a look on real time trains (for next Monday)

All Bradford FS’s are allocated platforms 1 to 5

All Ilkley’s are allocated 1 to 5 except the 6:38 (6), 7:03 (11), 17:47 (9)

All Skipton’s are allocated 1 to 5 except for the 8:56 (11), 9:54 (10), 10:54 (8), 17:18 (11), 17:41 (6)

Yes but when trains get blocked in during the peaks they will go from over the bridge.
 

northernchris

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My record is around the same on the Huddersfield via Bradford stopper.

Should of arrived at 59 and we were on time until being held outside but didn't finally get a platform and arrive until 15 past.

It is now very common to be held outside the station, must be very frustrating for those making connections. There's also a lot of strange moves - one example is the 1824 Carlisle - Leeds, which on approach to Leeds takes the line to the right at Armley junction and often comes to a stand before Whitehall Junction. In the meantime, the 2040 Ilkley - Leeds passes on the inside line coming to a stand on the approach to allow the ex Carlisle in to platform 4b with the Ilkley then coming in behind on 4a.
 

DarloRich

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I don't know

Usual stupid reply from you to a serious problem.

h'way then - lets have your solutions. You have a large station, bordered by ( and partially built over) a canal and river, with a complex series of junctions at one end and a two track elevated urban cutting at the other. Lets try to avoid any silly ideas and explain how you get these extra platforms.

The only real option is to take out the existing car parking which would then have to be constructed above the new platforms. However, there is no extra space for approach new lines. Also I wonder where the main traffic flows are. No point building platforms on that side if the trains want to be on the other side!

You simply are not going to build a platform on the Canal Wharf side until HS2 comes along.

See what I mean.

no. I am sick and tired of trite responses based on the idea all the available money goes on London. It is boring.
 

Eric

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It is now very common to be held outside the station, must be very frustrating for those making connections. There's also a lot of strange moves - one example is the 1824 Carlisle - Leeds, which on approach to Leeds takes the line to the right at Armley junction and often comes to a stand before Whitehall Junction. In the meantime, the 2040 Ilkley - Leeds passes on the inside line coming to a stand on the approach to allow the ex Carlisle in to platform 4b with the Ilkley then coming in behind on 4a.

Something similar happened the other day. I was at the Interchange and had the choice of a late running Huddersfield -Leeds, Preston-Leeds or Manchester Victoria-Leeds, all three were coming down the hill within the space of 12 minutes. I let the Huddersfield go first 142 and got the Preston 158x3 knowing this would have more chance of a seat and a slim chance of getting to Leeds first. The Manchester was just pulling into the Platform as we were leaving.

When we got to Leeds, we were sat outside for nearly 5 minutes before we went past the Huddersfield pacer which was at the junction where the big letters A, B, C etc are on the lights and we went straight into 12D so my hunch was right. That Pacer was packed and very crowded and left Bradford five minutes before us.
 

Andyh82

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Yes but when trains get blocked in during the peaks they will go from over the bridge.
Which will only happen when something has gone wrong somewhere.

I think expecting to just sail straight into a platform 100% of the time with no occasional wait outside is a bit unrealistic. As long as in normal operating conditions the timetable works, which in Leeds it seems to, then that is ok. I bet many of the short waits are actually booked.
 

yorksrob

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It is now very common to be held outside the station, must be very frustrating for those making connections. There's also a lot of strange moves - one example is the 1824 Carlisle - Leeds, which on approach to Leeds takes the line to the right at Armley junction and often comes to a stand before Whitehall Junction. In the meantime, the 2040 Ilkley - Leeds passes on the inside line coming to a stand on the approach to allow the ex Carlisle in to platform 4b with the Ilkley then coming in behind on 4a.

There's always been a good chance of Hallam line trains waiting at Engine Shed junction, mainly due to them sharing the westbound TPE line.

Generally though, things don't seem quite as bad finding a platform as they were in the run up to the rebuild yet !
 

Bantamzen

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h'way then - lets have your solutions. You have a large station, bordered by ( and partially built over) a canal and river, with a complex series of junctions at one end and a two track elevated urban cutting at the other. Lets try to avoid any silly ideas and explain how you get these extra platforms.

The only real option is to take out the existing car parking which would then have to be constructed above the new platforms. However, there is no extra space for approach new lines. Also I wonder where the main traffic flows are. No point building platforms on that side if the trains want to be on the other side!

You simply are not going to build a platform on the Canal Wharf side until HS2 comes along.

Obviously with the limitations of the eastern approach the main flows into Leeds are to the west. So expanding into what is currently the car park to the north allows for more bay capacity for services terminating in Leeds without snarling up the through platforms. This will at least allow for longer formations on routes that desperately need it.
 

30907

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It is now very common to be held outside the station, must be very frustrating for those making connections. There's also a lot of strange moves - one example is the 1824 Carlisle - Leeds, which on approach to Leeds takes the line to the right at Armley junction and often comes to a stand before Whitehall Junction. In the meantime, the 2040 Ilkley - Leeds passes on the inside line coming to a stand on the approach to allow the ex Carlisle in to platform 4b with the Ilkley then coming in behind on 4a.
So they arrive in their booked sequence, checked (yes, that happens far too much) or unchecked.
I imagine (just looking at RTT) the reason the Carlisle is booked to use C line not A is because of the Skipton-Leeds just ahead of it and the 2103 Leeds-Ilkley leaving.
 

daikilo

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(...) I think expecting to just sail straight into a platform 100% of the time with no occasional wait outside is a bit unrealistic. As long as in normal operating conditions the timetable works, which in Leeds it seems to, then that is ok. I bet many of the short waits are actually booked.

Whilst it is true that the normal timetable must be workable, there must also be resiliance for a reasonable level of out-of-course running both in the platforms and in the station throat. It is clear to me that the Leeds western-facing can't actually cope with what is currently "reasonable". Possible mitigations are e.g. not joining sets at Leeds but previously, not changing crews during peak times, adding tracks or more reversible running on lines "west" of the throat. Once that has been modelled we will know whether additional platform face-length is actually required.

I agree that it is not helped if trains running early or with a pathing/recovery allowance are allowed into the throat blocking others running to time, but I doubt this happens often, if at all (it is a signallers responsibility to prevent it). Unless trains get out of sequence and there is no other alternative....
 
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deltic08

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h'way then - lets have your solutions. You have a large station, bordered by ( and partially built over) a canal and river, with a complex series of junctions at one end and a two track elevated urban cutting at the other. Lets try to avoid any silly ideas and explain how you get these extra platforms.

The only real option is to take out the existing car parking which would then have to be constructed above the new platforms. However, there is no extra space for approach new lines. Also I wonder where the main traffic flows are. No point building platforms on that side if the trains want to be on the other side!

You simply are not going to build a platform on the Canal Wharf side until HS2 comes along.

no. I am sick and tired of trite responses based on the idea all the available money goes on London. It is boring.

Building one extra bay platform wont sort it. That is head in the sand mentality. The problem as far as I can see is trying to squeeze a quart into a pint pot, 12 lines reducing to 6 lines in the western station throat until it fans out again into 17 platforms and two through roads.
Fortunately there is still plenty of redundant infrastructure that can be used to make those 6 lines into 10 or even 12.

Holbeck viaduct is still intact but severed at both ends from running lines. The southern station bridge is wide enough at the country end of platform 17 where locos were once stabled without going to Holbeck shed until the 1990s. If the station bridge here was widened a short distance towards the viaduct, the very sharp double curve onto Holbeck viaduct could be eased from 20mph to 30 or even 35mph. A bridge over the Wakefield Westgate line at the west end of this viaduct could be extended with embankment between here and former Farnley Junction but joining here with the Morley line instead of Leeds New via Gomersal at 50mph which is the line speed at this point. All TPE trains using platforms 15/16 would use these lines and not use the current conflicting lines through Whitehall Junction unless necessary. This would make 6 into 8 approach tracks.

Second on the list would be the Harrogate lines, that had their own pair of lines into the former Central Station and the land is still available but someone chose to build a 25kv feeder station on it. If this feeder station could be built 300 yards west, where there is railway land available, and the approach viadict is widened between the old Central Station line and the station fan for platforms 2-6, on the inside of the curve where there is undeveloped land around the canal, Harrogate would have unconflicting moves in and out on the bay platforms. That would make 8 into 10 approach lines.

Leeds North West lines from Shipley would use the current Harrogate line completely as they mostly do now and not conflict with trains from to Doncaster/Woodlesford/Bradford Int/Halifax/Calder Valley.

Thirdly, build a curving viaduct from the disused embankment that still exists to the former Central station, over the new Harrogate and Leeds North West lines, as it used to do, to the toe of the extended platforms 0 and 1 for terminating London trains. This would free up the bay and through platforms that London trains currently terminate at and would allow continuation to Harrogate/Bradford FS/Skipton as planned without conflicting with other station movements. That would make 10 into 12 approach lines. This line could even bridge the line from Bradford Int by lowering the Bradford line underneath as both are on embankment currently.

On the east side, the viaduct must be widened at least to 3 tracks as far as Marsh Lane with the centre line at least bidirectional, with 4 track from there to Micklefield. Fortunately the formation and overbridges are wide enough as far as Garforth for 4 tracks.

Darlorich and Bald Rick will of course say it cannot be done or is too expensive 'pie in the sky' or 'typical crayonista' but sometimes I wonder do they live in the real world as they always dismiss rail expansion. But do they use this station on a regular basis and know how services are delayed by waiting for a route into Leeds? I think not but let's wait and see their reply. Something has to be done as again station footfall has caught up with capacity increases in 2000 and these remedies are less destructive than HS2 will be to Leeds. NR has to bite the bullet sooner than later and try to catch up with trebling in footfall over 20 years as growth in jobs in central Leeds will lead to doubling again in commuting in the next 15 years due to planned 77,000 new houses in Leeds City Region by 2030. Trans Pennine electrification wont sort it.
 
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DarloRich

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Darlorich and Bald Rick will of course say it cannot be done or is too expensive 'pie in the sky' or 'typical crayonista' but sometimes I wonder do they live in the real world as they always dismiss rail expansion.

I never say things cant be done. Anything can be done given the drive and determination to deliver. The problem I have with ideas like this is that they cant be funded. That is the key issue you and other fantasy island types miss. I absolutely live in the real & practical world and have a fair bit of experience in finding funding for railway projects and building business cases to get them delivered. My big problem is many of you don't live in that world, never have, never will and have no real desire to understand practicalities because that means admitting the world isn't as straightforward as lines on the map and shouting "Make it so"! I simply haven't got time to waste on fantastical ideas. Give me a practical, sensible , affordable solution and i will look at it. You haven't.

But do they use this station on a regular basis and know how services are delayed by waiting for a route into Leeds?

I use Leeds station on a regular basis. My gf lives at Woodlesford and I don't own a car. I often have to work in York so travel through Leeds all the time. I think it was 4 times this week. Is that regular enough use for you?

PS I am sure @Bald Rick can speak for himself!
 
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deltic08

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I never say things cant be done. Anything can be done given the drive and determination to deliver. The problem I have with ideas like this is that they cant be funded. That is the key issue you and other fantasy island types miss. I absolutely live in the real & practical world and have a fair bit of experience in finding funding for railway projects and building business cases to get them delivered. My big problem is many of you don't live in that world, never have, never will and have no real desire to understand practicalities because that means admitting the world isn't as straightforward as lines on the map and shouting "Make it so"! I simply haven't got time to waste on fantastical ideas. Give me a practical, sensible , affordable solution and i will look at it. You haven't.



I use Leeds station on a regular basis. My gf lives at Woodlesford and I don't own a car. I often have to work in York so travel through Leeds all the time. I think it was 4 times this week. Is that regular enough use for you?

PS I am sure @Bald Rick can speak for himself!
Well you should know then that an extra platform 0 will not sort the capacity problems. It is 12 lines trying to squeeze through 6, A-E, that is the problem and with freight from Skipton towards Castleford compounding the problem with flat instead of grade separated junctions blocking the whole lot except Harrogate lines.

If money can be found for devastation of Leeds for HS2 then it needs to be found for commuters who have to put up with delays day in day out and not an unnecessary, inflated, tax-payers-money-wasting project called HS2 that will suck the life out of the North to centric greedy London. Ordinary Joe Pubic does not want HS2 in Leeds as 96% in surveys say they will not use it. Yawn again why don't you..
 

DarloRich

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Well you should know then that an extra platform 0 will not sort the capacity problems. It is 12 lines trying to squeeze through 6, A-E, that is the problem and with freight from Skipton towards Castleford compounding the problem with flat instead of grade separated junctions blocking the whole lot except Harrogate lines.

If money can be found for devastation of Leeds for HS2 then it needs to be found for commuters who have to put up with delays day in day out and not an unnecessary, inflated, tax-payers-money-wasting project called HS2 that will suck the life out of the North to centric greedy London. Ordinary Joe Pubic does not want HS2 in Leeds as 96% in surveys say they will not use it. Yawn again why don't you..

Great. That isnt going to happen. No matter how much you wibble hs2 money isnt going to be spent on the existing network.

This is exactly what I mean with you and others. You present fantastical ideas that are detached from the reality of public funding. You then whine when that reality is pointed out and come up with another fantasy solution. Try again. This time let's stick to the real world instead of the fantasy.
 

Grumpy

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Re the comment upthread re 15 departures between 1700-1800 to the Airedale, Wharfedale and Harrogate lines, I'm not sure why this is a problem when they have almost exclusive use of platforms 1-5. How do they cope at Fenchurch St?
With regard to the comments re some trains for these lines using the higher numbered platforms it was my impression that this was due to them coming off servicing/stabling at Neville Hill, rather than a shortage of capacity on 1-5.
 

Bantamzen

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Great. That isnt going to happen. No matter how much you wibble hs2 money isnt going to be spent on the existing network.

This is exactly what I mean with you and others. You present fantastical ideas that are detached from the reality of public funding. You then whine when that reality is pointed out and come up with another fantasy solution. Try again. This time let's stick to the real world instead of the fantasy.

I don't think anyone here is under the illusion that an expansion at Leeds is just a snap of the fingers away. However, if HS2 does make it to the city, this is likely to increase passenger traffic through it. Plus Leeds continues to see more commuter and leisure passengers, there are tens thousands of new homes being built around Leeds and West Yorkshire, and Leeds is soon to introduce a clean air zone, all of which could will drive demand even further.

There are growing demands from all quarters to look at possible solutions, and to find ways to fund them. And as anyone who lives in or commutes to, Leeds gas rapidly growing congestion problem meaning that there is little to no capacity to deal with increased demand. So are there reasons why Leeds would be less able to attract funding for an expansion than other cities in the area?
 

DarloRich

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So are there reasons why Leeds would be less able to attract funding for an expansion than other cities in the area?

bluntly, and you wont like this, the money required to sort out Leeds today can offer a better return if invested elsewhere and create less hassle and disruption! Personally I think HS2 offers the best chance for a proper solution as that should unlock capacity and provide access to more funding. Until then it is going to be sticking plaster jobs sadly.

The eastern end problems seem, on paper, to have a very straight forward solution - just build a wider bridge and knock down some buildings to do so - but that is going to be a very long term process and very expensive. That is before we look at getting anymore capacity through the cutting up to Neville Hill and beyond that through the residential areas before Crossgates!
 
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DarloRich

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Holbeck viaduct is still intact but severed at both ends from running lines. The southern station bridge is wide enough at the country end of platform 17 where locos were once stabled without going to Holbeck shed until the 1990s. If the station bridge here was widened a short distance towards the viaduct, the very sharp double curve onto Holbeck viaduct could be eased from 20mph to 30 or even 35mph. A bridge over the Wakefield Westgate line at the west end of this viaduct could be extended with embankment between here and former Farnley Junction but joining here with the Morley line instead of Leeds New via Gomersal at 50mph which is the line speed at this point. All TPE trains using platforms 15/16 would use these lines and not use the current conflicting lines through Whitehall Junction unless necessary. This would make 6 into 8 approach tracks.

The problem is the far end - it is very tight space wise & angles wise to get over to the Manchester line. Personally I would, if there was still space, connect both the Wakefield and Manchester lines to that unused bit of line. It also needs quite bit of ohle structure & signal movement & bridge work at the Leeds end and the curve worries me. Did i also read the council had some alternative plans for the viaduct?

It isn't a bad idea actually and the one I think has the most likelihood of happening IF the money can be found!

Second on the list would be the Harrogate lines, that had their own pair of lines into the former Central Station and the land is still available but someone chose to build a 25kv feeder station on it. If this feeder station could be built 300 yards west, where there is railway land available, and the approach viadict is widened between the old Central Station line and the station fan for platforms 2-6, on the inside of the curve where there is undeveloped land around the canal, Harrogate would have unconflicting moves in and out on the bay platforms. That would make 8 into 10 approach lines.

Does that not rely on a new Canal bridge, a new bridge over the A58 and conflict with idea 3 below?

Thirdly, build a curving viaduct from the disused embankment that still exists to the former Central station, over the new Harrogate and Leeds North West lines, as it used to do, to the toe of the extended platforms 0 and 1 for terminating London trains. This would free up the bay and through platforms that London trains currently terminate at and would allow continuation to Harrogate/Bradford FS/Skipton as planned without conflicting with other station movements. That would make 10 into 12 approach lines. This line could even bridge the line from Bradford Int by lowering the Bradford line underneath as both are on embankment currently.

that requires an awful lot of land take and demolition. I just cant see it being practical.

PS I wonder which part of the approach layout is the real pinch point - is it the canal bridge?
 

Andyh82

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Asking for a dedicated line into the station from each route seems a bit over the top to me, how frequent are the services on these routes, Bradford Int, Woodlesford, Outwood etc, no more than about 4-6 an hour.

There has been a lot of talk about congestion in the North over recent years and I would say Leeds Station is way down the list. The situation in Manchester, and the situation with fasts and stoppers both trying to share the same line with hardly any loops, such as on the Transpennine should in my opinion be sorted out first.

Even congestion into Sheffield would be a higher priority in my opinion
 

Adam0984

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One of the problems is that northern have started strengthening trains throughout the day so you’ve got 2 14Xs on the Sheffield stoppers both ways so such as the Via Castleford one that would normally squeeze on 17A no longer fits so has to be put elsewhere. Man Vics can be upto 4 15X carriages which needs a big chunk of platform especially if it has standing time in the station. The Harrogate line trains seem to leave from various platforms between 1 and 6 when they used to be on 1 most of the time
 
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