Capacity on Southampton to Waterloo line

[swt_passenger]

Very interesting perspectives. Thank you all. So if something needed to be done in the short term and it can't be train frequency. Is it number of carriages and extending the so called "peak hour earlier in morning later in evening. And offer a ticket price incentive for not travelling at the peak hour??

It's an increased number of carriages up to 12 car length on most, if not all, remaining mainline services - those that can still be strengthened above 4 or 8 cars. This is all part of the overall result of the 707 fleet arriving. Basically you've got an extra 30 five car trains that will displace the same number of 458/5s onto routes mainly operated by 450s. Those 450s become available elsewhere, a few will replace 456s on Ascot - Guildfords but the majority will end up on 'mainline' routes.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's an increased number of carriages up to 12 car length on most, if not all, remaining mainline services - those that can still be strengthened above 4 or 8 cars. This is all part of the overall result of the 707 fleet arriving. Basically you've got an extra 30 five car trains that will displace the same number of 458/5s onto routes mainly operated by 450s. Those 450s become available elsewhere, a few will replace 456s on Ascot - Guildfords but the majority will end up on 'mainline' routes.

AIUI, the morning high peak hour is all at maximum formation save one train.

 

[swt_passenger]

AIUI, the morning high peak hour is all at maximum formation save one train.

I'd wondered about that. Playing devil's advocate, perhaps they'll just run more 12.450s in the high peak, and move the 10.444s to earlier and later services. No doubt a few people would be disappointed...

 

[The Ham]

AIUI, the morning high peak hour is all at maximum formation save one train.

However there are trains that arrive to Waterloo at about 9am (plus or minus 25 minutes) which are just 5 coaches long and have people standing. Likewise others on here complain about the fact that the 18:00 from Guildford to Waterloo has been shortened to 5 coaches and so busy that it is causing it to be delayed (only by a few minutes).

All of which are services that could release pressure if they were full length (especially when the previous train is cancelled).

Yes it may not be a lot, but just look at British Cycling to see what a lot of small improvements can do. It may not be a lot but it could be just enough to be enough.

 

[Hammy1966]

It's an increased number of carriages up to 12 car length on most, if not all, remaining mainline services - those that can still be strengthened above 4 or 8 cars. This is all part of the overall result of the 707 fleet arriving. Basically you've got an extra 30 five car trains that will displace the same number of 458/5s onto routes mainly operated by 450s. Those 450s become available elsewhere, a few will replace 456s on Ascot - Guildfords but the majority will end up on 'mainline' routes.

Is there anywhere that I can find a description of guy seat configuration for the 707? I dread the possibility that more of the 3+2 configuration is on the way. I am not sure what carriage type that is but caught it a couple of times now and they are quite impractical dimensions. Think I would rather stand than have someone's elbow lodged in my ribs or another passengers knee to contend with.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there anywhere that I can find a description of guy seat configuration for the 707? I dread the possibility that more of the 3+2 configuration is on the way. I am not sure what carriage type that is but caught it a couple of times now and they are quite impractical dimensions. Think I would rather stand than have someone's elbow lodged in my ribs or another passengers knee to contend with.

The 707s are mainly 2+2 with some 2+1 areas. The 450s are the existing 2+3 fleet. There's a thread about the 707s in the rolling stock forum:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=122552

There are links in that thread to various videos and photo sets, such as this set by Paul Bigland: http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p487954781/h7812b76b#h71e15259

 

[Hammy1966]

The 707s are mainly 2+2 with some 2+1 areas. The 450s are the existing 2+3 fleet. There's a thread about the 707s in the rolling stock forum:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=122552

There are links in that thread to various videos and photo sets, such as this set by Paul Bigland: http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p487954781/h7812b76b#h71e15259

Thanks for that. They look great. Modern and sleek. So with these trains for to more suburban lines does the longer haul from Bournemouth, Weymouth, Southampton get any improvements short term? Over the last year I have seen more of these 450 class appear?

It all goes back to the debate on "capacity" from Southampton and Winchester. Is there a realistic and acceptable level of comfort for more passengers. So to summarize all the input. Long term improvements helping. Reading the long term plan it seems to offer hope. The plan refers to things going on in control period 5 that address the "near London" improvements that hopefully start to help us further out in the provinces? I can see from all of the contributions that things are getting done so I will look forward to the benefits coming our way over time.

 

[swt_passenger]

...So with these trains for to more suburban lines does the longer haul from Bournemouth, Weymouth, Southampton get any improvements short term? Over the last year I have seen more of these 450 class appear?

That's really what we've just been discussing. The displaced 450s, about 20 odd of them daily (once we've accounted for the few that will go to the Ascot line) have to be used somewhere, but as Bald Rick previously pointed out there are very few obvious services to use them on simply as strengthening (e.g. 4 > 8, 4 > 12, or 8 > 12).

So yes, there's a distinct possibility that we'll see some services converted to 12.450 that are not currently 450 operated. It's about the only logical possibility, but SWT have never mentioned anything in much detail publicly.

Existing passengers won't see a 12.450 replacing their current 10.444 as an improvement, but the DfT will.

 

[TEW]

In one of the many lists SWT have published of which services see an increase in capacity I remember at least one of the evening peak Portsmouth Direct Line services that are currently a 10-car 444 was shown as changing to a 12-car 450. Was either the 1745 or 1815 from London Waterloo. Those 2, and the 2 morning peak 10-car 444s on the Portsmouth Direct are the obvious candidates to become 12-car 450s.

 

[Envy123]

I wonder, could the arrival of Crossrail 2 speed up the fast services into Weymouth, making commuting from Dorset to London daily more feasible than it is now?

 

[Hammy1966]

In one of the many lists SWT have published of which services see an increase in capacity I remember at least one of the evening peak Portsmouth Direct Line services that are currently a 10-car 444 was shown as changing to a 12-car 450. Was either the 1745 or 1815 from London Waterloo. Those 2, and the 2 morning peak 10-car 444s on the Portsmouth Direct are the obvious candidates to become 12-car 450s.

At the time I commute. Anywhere between 05:20 and 06:30 at least one of the 2 fast trains is a 450. I think the train on the hour at 06:00 and 07:00 is a 450. The one on the half hour at 06:30 is the 444. I get that one or the 05.20... Despite the early time dar preferred to being a long distance sardine. More seats for sure less places a human adult can sit. People end up standing to protect personal space.

 

[TEW]

I'm sure it won't be popular but nearly every other high peak service in to or out of Waterloo that is a 10-car 444 goes towards Bournemouth or Weymouth, and I don't see them being changed to 450s. There is one other potential service in the evening. The 1739 Waterloo to Portsmouth via Basingstoke is currently a 10-car 444. There are more 8-car 450s in the evening too which could potentially be lengthened; 1709 Portsmouth via Basingstoke, 1712 Basingstoke, 1715 Fratton, 1725 Alton, 1748 Southampton Central, 1855 Alton.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Trains not currently running at full length (10-444 or 12-450) in the morning which could perhaps be lengthened:
0520 Southampton Central-Waterloo 0651 (5-444)
0542 Alton-Waterloo 0654 (8-450)
0554 Basingstoke-Waterloo 0702 (5-444)
0600 Haslemere-Waterloo 0706 (8-450)
0623 Basingstoke-Waterloo 0729 (8-450)
0642 Basingstoke-Waterloo 0739 (8-450)
0752 Basingstoke-Waterloo 0857 (5-444)
0710 Southampton Central-Waterloo 0908 (5-444)
0814 Alton-Waterloo 0919 (8-450)

Nothing that you'd really class as the high peak, and some of those services have already seen recent lengthening.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder, could the arrival of Crossrail 2 speed up the fast services into Weymouth, making commuting from Dorset to London daily more feasible than it is now?

I can't see them getting faster. They still have to make the same calls west of where the Crossrail changes free up capacity, and that freed up capacity is already reserved for more fast line services from closer origins, such as Southampton, Portsmouth, Basingstoke etc.

 

[The Ham]

I can't see them getting faster. They still have to make the same calls west of where the Crossrail changes free up capacity, and that freed up capacity is already reserved for more fast line services from closer origins, such as Southampton, Portsmouth, Basingstoke etc.

Quite, if you want faster services the best infrastructure project would the conversion of this rail to OHLE, as that could see line speeds increase marginally (possibly to 110mph with current stock) but certainly would see improvements in acceleration.

 

[Ianno87]

I wonder, could the arrival of Crossrail 2 speed up the fast services into Weymouth, making commuting from Dorset to London daily more feasible than it is now?

Aren't peak trains fast from/to Winchester already? Hard to see how that could be improved!

 

[swt_passenger]

Aren't peak trains fast from/to Winchester already? Hard to see how that could be improved!

That's what I thought was the main reason Crossrail itself would have no effect on Weymouth speeds. To increase the speed of the peak up direction trains you'd have to drop calls west of Bournemouth, and to do that you'd then need to have other trains picking those calls up, which could slow someone else's journey down.

There's always a balance to be struck, but the overall service in the whole area has to be seen as a system.

 

[Envy123]

I can't see them getting faster. They still have to make the same calls west of where the Crossrail changes free up capacity, and that freed up capacity is already reserved for more fast line services from closer origins, such as Southampton, Portsmouth, Basingstoke etc.

A shame, really - a good portion of the West of England Line and the Weymouth branch leaves a lot of places left to be commutable to London daily.

I mean, at the moment Southampton, Brockenhurst and Bournemouth are not yet oversaturated with commuter demand but it's only a matter of time...

Aren't peak trains fast from/to Winchester already? Hard to see how that could be improved!

I went to Poole a couple of weeks ago and I noticed that while the Waterloo to Winchester leg was a very good run, it slowed down considerably after that and went from a long-distance service to a local branch one.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is there any sections of Weymouth-Waterloo that could have line speeds increased without conversion to OLE? What's the main things keeping line speeds lower west of Southampton?

 

[The Ham]

A shame, really - a good portion of the West of England Line and the Weymouth branch leaves a lot of places left to be commutable to London daily.

I mean, at the moment Southampton, Brockenhurst and Bournemouth are not yet oversaturated with commuter demand but it's only a matter of time...



I went to Poole a couple of weeks ago and I noticed that while the Waterloo to Winchester leg was a very good run, it slowed down considerably after that and went from a long-distance service to a local branch one.

Post Crossrail 2 there could be scope to run a fast service whilst maintaining the existing calling pattern on the existing service. In doing so you could (if pathing aloud) a fast service that only called at principal stations.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there any sections of Weymouth-Waterloo that could have line speeds increased without conversion to OLE? What's the main things keeping line speeds lower west of Southampton?

It's the generally curved nature of the track west of Southampton that constrains the speed. Such as through the New Forest National Park. Changing the means of powering the trains would do nothing AFAICS, and very little east of Southampton, given that it is a mixed traffic two track railway as far as Basingstoke, as has been pointed out numerous times.

The electric spine (if/when it happens) didn't include increasing speed on the BML as one of its objectives.

 

[desk_wizard]

The 1739 Waterloo to Portsmouth via Basingstoke is currently a 10-car 444.

Was an 8 car 450 until last December when the timetable was twiddled

 

[swt_passenger]

In one of the many lists SWT have published of which services see an increase in capacity I remember at least one of the evening peak Portsmouth Direct Line services that are currently a 10-car 444 was shown as changing to a 12-car 450. Was either the 1745 or 1815 from London Waterloo. Those 2, and the 2 morning peak 10-car 444s on the Portsmouth Direct are the obvious candidates to become 12-car 450s.

Are you talking here about publicly available recent lists, because I cannot remember any since those alterations associated with the 458/5 and 456 projects?

I'd assume there'll have to be another list when all the dust settles during late 2017?

 

[TEW]

There was a publicly available list around the time of the 707 order being confirmed. I can't remember a lot of the content of it now unfortunately, and I expect it's disappeared from the SWT website now it's been rebuilt.

 

[mr_jrt]

There was a publicly available list around the time of the 707 order being confirmed. I can't remember a lot of the content of it now unfortunately, and I expect it's disappeared from the SWT website now it's been rebuilt.

If you have a date from when you think it was on there you could always try the internet archive

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is there any scope for being able to straighten out some of the curves causing the lower speed limits between Poole and Southampton Central?

 

[TheWalrus]

There's no way the WofE could handle 4tph each way between Salisbury and Yeovil is there?

I don't think it's necessary either lol.

 

[edwin_m]

Is there any scope for being able to straighten out some of the curves causing the lower speed limits between Poole and Southampton Central?

As most of it is either in a built-up area or in a National Park, probably not much.

 

[MarkyT]

Re: 4tph each way between Salisbury and Yeovil not being possible -

I don't think it's necessary either lol.

Agreed 4tph is not possible or necessary west of Salisbury, but might be achieved east of Salisbury, probably with some extra signal sections on the double track in places to accomodate different stopping patterns, i.e to cater for faster limited stop trains catching up all stations ones while also leaving some space for some freight paths.

West of Salisbury, 2tph is probably not possible all day on a strict regular interval with the current single track and passing loop configuration, although I think there are a few extra trains squeezed in over the standard hourly frequency today.

There are possibilities short of complete re-doubling that could help with capacity, flexibility and journey time reduction:

Twin platforms on the double track at both Templecomble and Tisbury could improve performance and recovery opportunity. At Tisbury in particular that could help address the imbalance between the up & down journey time caused by one train of a passing pair having to stop additionally in the existing loop just outside the station. The station rebuilds would be compatible with any future more comprehensive redoubling project.

Short extensions of all the loops and double track sections and increase of their turnout speeds to improve their 'dynamic' properties.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Looking at the eastern end of Basingstoke on Google Earth there's an abandoned plot of land. If the Gresley Road was into an underpass, would there be enough room to get a double track cord in there between the SWML and the line off to Reading without the radius of the curves being excessively or too sharp?

Would such a cord open up many operational possibilities and would it relive pressure on some routes?

 

[swt_passenger]

Looking at the eastern end of Basingstoke on Google Earth there's an abandoned plot of land.

Google Earth is not up to date. That empty triangle now contains the Wessex ROC.
The lines to Reading are already double track, I don't see what benefit you are suggesting a new double track chord would provide.

The Wessex route study already shows a layout for grade separation of that junction, so it would be reasonable to assume it is already "buildable".