Canterbury-Cosham via Barnham?

[CoshamRich]

Hello all, long time lurker, now confused enough to seek help.

My son's g/f wants to visit him in Cosham, from Canterbury. There is a very good off peak return, 16-25 RC, via Barnham for £17.80.

She plans to travel to Cosham on the 22nd Nov and return on the 24th nov, a Sunday. However despite the ticket being valid for one month from the outward trip, the fare disappears if we specify the 24th as the return date, any other return date is fine.

There is a lot of engineering work and bus replacements on the 24th but it is still possible to travel Cosham-Brighton-Ashford-Canterbury on that day, this is the shown route on any other Sunday.

Would she be able to use this route on the 24th, even though NR site doesn't show it, or is there any other route she could take that would be a valid one.

Sorry for such a long winded first question but would really appreciate any help.

Thanks in anticipation, Rich

 

[soil]

Seems to work fine to me

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servi...sex)&saved=false&responseId=2&fareDisplayId=3

 

[CoshamRich]

Seems to work fine to me

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servi...sex)&saved=false&responseId=2&fareDisplayId=3

Not sure as the link you posted has timed out, looking for Cant to CSA out 22Nov back 24th Nov 1 pax 16-25 rc, cheapest I get for those dates is £39.60, use out 22nd back 23rd-25th or whatever and it shows as £17.80, yet the return is valid for any day within 1 month.

So should we put the wrong return date in the booking page and wing it, as the return portion will say valid until around the 22nd Dec, or put the actual travel dates in and pay twice as much?

 

[yorkie]

Welcome to the forum.

You don't need an itinerary with a walk-up ticket (unless the route is not otherwise permitted).

 

[CoshamRich]

Ok thanks, was hoping to buy the ticket from RSH as we have some vouchers. This is what has raised the apparant lack of tickets for the return leg and caused the concern.

 

[soil]

You can just enter anything. As long as the outbound date is correct, it will be fine.

Incidentally, this ticket should also be valid Cosham - Brighton - London St Pancras - Canterbury on HS1.

However it's not necessarily advisable to travel via this route, even with the ridiculous bus replacement services disrupting journeys between Brighton and Ashford, because there are quite a few reports of people being challenged on similar tickets.

 

[CoshamRich]

Thanks Soil, appreciate the reply. Thought i knew a bit about train travel, purely as a passenger with more than a few years experience but there are so many anomallies.

Can I just ask one more possibly stupid question relating to the journey in question? What exactly does via Barnham mean, clearly passing through Barnham is a requirement, no problem but even though Barnham is a requirement, I am assuming it means not via London, is this assumption correct or not relevant, would say Cant E-Victoria-Cosham be a reasonable route or using St Pancras not on HS1 be any good?

I'm sorry for asking so many qs that may seem obvious to the more knowledgable but I feel a bit of responsibility to the girl travelling and wouldn't want her being possibly hassled when the ticket terms aren't really that clear to joe public.

Thanks again for any guidance, Rich

 

[JamesRowden]

Can I just ask one more possibly stupid question relating to the journey in question? What exactly does via Barnham mean, clearly passing through Barnham is a requirement, no problem but even though Barnham is a requirement, I am assuming it means not via London, is this assumption correct or not relevant, would say Cant E-Victoria-Cosham be a reasonable route or using St Pancras not on HS1 be any good?

I'm sorry for asking so many qs that may seem obvious to the more knowledgable but I feel a bit of responsibility to the girl travelling and wouldn't want her being possibly hassled when the ticket terms aren't really that clear to joe public.

Thanks again for any guidance, Rich

I think that the 'via Barnham' ticket in this case allows travel via either Polegate and Barnham, or Edenbridge and Barnham. I think that this requirement would be too long to fit on the ticket in full.

 

[bb21]

Route Via Barnham means exactly that. You need to pass through Barnham on the way, regardless of whether the train stops there or not.

If the passenger is not experienced in fares matters and would like to avoid hassle, I do not recommend using this ticket via central London. It is highly likely that there will be hassle from gateline staff in central London, as I don't believe this ticket is intended to be valid that way. If using HS1, even more likelihood of it being picked up by the guard.

 

[maniacmartin]

Via Barnham means that you may take any permitted route as per the routeing guide or NRCoC, as long as such the route passes through Barnham. If you are able to find a permitted route that happens to pass through Barnham and also through London, then it would be permitted. You can read all about it in this part of our Guide, but if you can get an itinerary from NRE you don't need to go to the effort.

If you go on the National Rail journey planner, and click "more options", then click Add Another via, you can specify via London and also via Barnham. Click on the itineraries there and check that it doesn't say you need two tickets, and that it also actually did produce a route via Barnham. If it does, then that would be valid with your ticket.

NRE does produce HS1 fares doing that, and also fares going in and out of Victoria. If you want to use one of these, then I'd take a printout of the itinerary with you. Note that unless your ticket has a maltese cross, then if you are new to fares, I'd advise you not to attempt to travel on the Underground, as the rules are a bit complex.

 

[JamesRowden]

Via Barnham means that you may take any permitted route as per the routeing guide or NRCoC, as long as such the route passes through Barnham. If you are able to find a permitted route that happens to pass through Barnham and also through London, then it would be permitted. You can read all about it in this part of our Guide, but if you can get an itinerary from NRE you don't need to go to the effort.

If you go on the National Rail journey planner, and click "more options", then click Add Another via, you can specify via London and also via Barnham. Click on the itineraries there and check that it doesn't say you need two tickets, and that it also actually did produce a route via Barnham. If it does, then that would be valid with your ticket.

NRE does produce HS1 fares doing that, and also fares going in and out of Victoria. If you want to use one of these, then I'd take a printout of the itinerary with you. Note that unless your ticket has a maltese cross, then if you are new to fares, I'd advise you not to attempt to travel on the Underground, as the rules are a bit complex.

NRE and the Southern website do not offer the 'Via Barnham' ticket for the Canturbury-LondonBridge-EastCroydon-Barnham-Cosham route.

Does this mean that Southern wanted to sell a ticket with the restriction 'Via Polegate/Edenbridge & Barnham', but because this restriction would not fit on the ticket Southern called it 'Via Barnham' and programmed ticket searches to use the 'Via Polegate/Edenbridge & Barnham' restriction although legally it is a 'Via Barnham' restriction?

 

[RJ]

If you go on the National Rail journey planner, and click "more options", then click Add Another via, you can specify via London and also via Barnham. Click on the itineraries there and check that it doesn't say you need two tickets, and that it also actually did produce a route via Barnham. If it does, then that would be valid with your ticket.

You can specify via London and via Barnham. It does not force results to strictly meet both of those stipulations - the results will meet one or the other. If it meets both stipulations, it'll be by coincidence.

You won't get NRE to show via Barnham fares as valid via London, because the ENRG contains a specific exclusion of routes via the London Group for tickets routed "Via Barnham."

 

[maniacmartin]

My interpretation of NRCoC section 13 is that the Routeing Guide (and thus NRE) need only be consulted to determine the permitted routes between A and B, but not to determine which tickets can be used to travel on those permitted routes.

If A - B is permitted via X and Y, then it logically follows that an A - B Route: Via Y would be valid on that route. I'm interested to hear others' opinions on this.

Also, CoshamRich, as it appears there is some disagreement here, it's perhaps best you avoid going via London unless you like hassle.

 

[CoshamRich]

Wow, thank you everyone for your replies and/or suggestions. Think I have finally got it now, well maybe. If I search the return from Havant, about a 10 min drive from here, the NRE shows the "normal" Sunday routing, Hav-Brighton-Ashford-Cant.W. although there is a bus from Lewes to Hastings, the total journey time is only an hour or so longer than the quicker Redhill-Tonbridge option, so will advise her to go that way back on Sunday, to avoid any problems.

Another anomally is the fare, from Cant-Havant, the cheapest 16-25RC off peak return, not London is £34 but to Cosham it is £17.80, NRE site suggest the exact same trains to both destinations but almost half the price to go 1 stop more........Just when you think you have it sussed.....!!!

Many thanks again for all your guidance and suggestions.

Cheers, Rich.

 

[yorkie]

Southern don't set any of the Canterbury - Havant flows, both the 'Not via London' and 'Any Permitted' flows are set by Southeastern, and there are no other routeings available.

Southeastern's fares are extremely expensive, so it's best to avoid fares set by them if possible.

 

[soil]

There are literally millions of anomalies in railway ticketing.

Examples:

* you can avoid peak-time restrictions by buying a ticket to a further destination (more expensive for the same type of ticket, but cheap when comparing off-peak with any time)
* you can avoid high fares set by one train company by splitting into two or more tickets set by other train companies
* you can avoid high fares set by one train company by buying a ticket to a further destination set by a different train company
* you can avoid high fares set by one train company by using an unorthodox route that is permitted according to the published rules, but which isn't self-evidently valid
* you can avoid high fares set by one train company by buying tickets in advance, potentially paying much less than someone else on the same train travelling a shorter distance with no advance tickets available

All of these activities are permissible and legal and should not involve any inconvenience to the passenger, but in practice any of them can result in trouble.

In the case of Cosham - Canterbury there is no doubt that it is permissible Cosham - Brighton - London - Canterbury, however there are a set of unwritten assumptions that may cause you trouble if you do so.

These are:

* Cosham - Canterbury via Barnham is substantially cheaper than both Cosham - London and Canterbury - London, therefore it can't possibly be valid. This has no basis in the rules, but it is a common attitude.
* There is no Maltese Cross on the ticket, therefore you cannot go via London. This again is wrong, the Routeing Guide explicitly states that some tickets valid via London will lack the cross. In addition, tickets routed 'London Not Underground' actually REQUIRE you to go via London and also lack the cross.
* 'Via Barnham' has some secret but unspecified fuller meaning, probably something along the lines of 'you have to rattle along the south coast for the whole journey and can't go anywhere near London'. Again this is wrong, but it's a common attitude.

Absent one or more of these factors you might find no problems, but it's impossible to tell and down to the whim of railway staff to a great degree.

 

[CoshamRich]

Thanks Yorkie, just rechecked on the BR Fares site and indeed as you say prices set by different tocs, I suppose there has to be a boundary somewhere, just lucky it's there for us.

Soil, thanks again, I have experienced some of the anomalies in the first part of your reply.

The "via Barnham" point you make on the specific journey, was exactly my assumption, as a confused customer and I suppose with all the different routeing possibilities it must be hard, even impossible for a harrased gateline person to know all the options off the top of their head.

Anyway thanks again for all the input, I enjoyed hearing all the points of view. We have bought the ticket and the return will either be rattling along the South Coast or more likely via East Croydon, Tonbridge and Ashford, which has now appeared on the NRE site.

Thanks again for all the valuable comments, Rich.

 

[RJ]

In the case of Cosham - Canterbury there is no doubt that it is permissible Cosham - Brighton - London - Canterbury, however there are a set of unwritten assumptions that may cause you trouble if you do so.

I often advise against people doing the kind of things that I and some other forum members would do when it comes to ticketing. Would I use a route Barnham ticket to travel on HS1 and via London?

Maybe.

Maybe not.

It depends on how many times a week I need to go to Canterbury, which these days is anything between one and five times. A couple of days ago I did a trip from Canterbury -> Ashford -> Brighton -> London Bridge, but I don't do that very often.

 

[sarahj]

Route Via Barnham means exactly that. You need to pass through Barnham on the way, regardless of whether the train stops there or not.

If the passenger is not experienced in fares matters and would like to avoid hassle, I do not recommend using this ticket via central London. It is highly likely that there will be hassle from gateline staff in central London, as I don't believe this ticket is intended to be valid that way. If using HS1, even more likelihood of it being picked up by the guard.

All trains running along the coast stop at Barnham, its a busy little station for the size of 'village'.

All this rattling along the south coast would make you think some of the trains are a bit 70's.....oh!. The plus point is we only run 377's via Cosham. Just be warned, once you get passed Chi, we like to stop. You only end up going fast though East worthing, Fishersgate and Aldrington.

SJ

 

[CoshamRich]

Just a quick update, the young lady decided 5hrs 50mins, including 2 bus journeys was too long, so opted for Havant-Brighton-St Pancras-Canterbury W, using Southern, FCC and SE was a better option. She had no hassle, whether that was down to luck or an accepted route is anyones guess.

Thank you all for your input, advice and help, much appreciated. Rich