Can't buy Farringdon - Dover ticket

[miklcct]

I am trying to obtain a period return from Farringdon to Dover (with 26-30 Railcard). However, it is not possible to obtain a through return ticket on Trainsplit which is valid to travel on HS1.

The ticket machine at Farringdon only sells not HS1 tickets, but not Plus High Speed tickets.

If I enter London Blackfriars - Dover Priory into Trainsplit via St Pancras, it also doesn't return a through return ticket.

I have read that there is an easement allowing an HS1 London Terminals ticket to cross Thameslink to reach Blackfriars or some other southern terminals, but the search on Trainsplit doesn't confirm so. And the information on National Rail website conflicts with the poster that London Terminals tickets are not valid at Farringdon (which doesn't show an exception for High Speed tickets):

Customers with tickets with an origin or destination of London Terminals and routed Plus High Speed are also permitted to travel in either direction on Thameslink services between London St Pancras International and:

London Blackfriars

City Thameslink

Elephant & Castle

Farringdon

London Bridge

Can anyone confirm if the official National Rail website is true in practice, and why can't I buy such a ticket from either the ticket machine or Trainsplit?

 

[Adam Williams]

I am trying to obtain a period return from Farringdon to Dover (with 26-30 Railcard). However, it is not possible to obtain a through return ticket on Trainsplit which is valid to travel on HS1.

Can you link the fare you're trying to buy on BRFares?

 

[Benjwri]

Yes there is an easement that you can travel on Thameslink services between London St Pancras International and Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, Elephant & Castle and London Bridge, when using a ticket to London Terminals routed ‘Plus High Speed’.

 

[drueberflug]

I am trying to obtain a period return from Farringdon to Dover (with 26-30 Railcard). However, it is not possible to obtain a through return ticket on Trainsplit which is valid to travel on HS1.

The ticket machine at Farringdon only sells not HS1 tickets, but not Plus High Speed tickets.

If I enter London Blackfriars - Dover Priory into Trainsplit via St Pancras, it also doesn't return a through return ticket.

I have read that there is an easement allowing an HS1 London Terminals ticket to cross Thameslink to reach Blackfriars or some other southern terminals, but the search on Trainsplit doesn't confirm so. And the information on National Rail website conflicts with the poster that London Terminals tickets are not valid at Farringdon (which doesn't show an exception for High Speed tickets):



Can anyone confirm if the official National Rail website is true in practice, and why can't I buy such a ticket from either the ticket machine or Trainsplit?

The thing is, you'd need a ticket from/to London Terminals, not one from/to Farringdon or London Blackfriars.
Trainline-based booking pages, such as EMR's (https://www.buytickets.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/) are able to parse that easement correctly, and will gladly sell you a valid ticket for your journey.

Customers with tickets with an origin or destination of London Terminals and routed Plus High Speed are also permitted to travel in either direction on Thameslink services between London St Pancras International

 

[ainsworth74]

However, it is not possible to obtain a through return ticket on Trainsplit which is valid to travel on HS1.

Are there any fares that include HS1 to retail?

 

[drueberflug]

Are there any fares that include HS1 to retail?

There are none from Blackfriars or Farrington themselves that are valid on HS1, only from London Terminals with added validity due to easement 700847.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes there is an easement that you can travel on Thameslink services between London St Pancras International and Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, Elephant & Castle and London Bridge, when using a ticket to London Terminals routed ‘Plus High Speed’.

I don’t think it is reflected in the electronic data though, as far as I can see, which is probably why you can’t buy it. I would just buy a ticket with an itinerary to St Pancras, that you know will be issued to London terminals.

I think as per the direction of travel in post #1 he needs a ticket FROM London Terminals TO Dover, and to force a planner to include ‘plus HS1’ needs to use St Pancras as origin.

 

[drueberflug]

Just to add: if there are no Return fares available, Raileasy/Trainsplit will immediately just assume the route is using Single Leg Pricing.
The thing is, it probably treats Farringdon as "London Underground Zone 1" instead of "London Terminals" in this situation, from where there are no return fares offered, totally ignoring the easement.
(I did force a stop in Stratford International for this though)

 

[Benjwri]

There are none from Blackfriars or Farrington themselves that are valid on HS1, only from London Terminals with added validity due to easement 700847.

This is the issue here. TrainSplit will happily issue the ticket from for example London Bridge, and of course you can start your journey short on that at Farringdon.

The thing is, you'd need a ticket to London Terminals, not one to London Blackfriars.
Trainline-based booking pages, such as EMR's (https://www.buytickets.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/) are able to parse that easement correctly, and will gladly sell you a valid ticket for your journey.

Whether they should do that is a different story, in the same way that TrainSplit isn’t allowed to give you options where you get a ticket that you discard part of.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2025 ==

Just to add: if there are no Return fares available, Raileasy/Trainsplit will immediately just assume the route is using Single Leg Pricing.
The thing is, it probably treats Farringdon as "London Underground Zone 1" instead of "London Terminals" in this situation, totally ignoring the easement.
(I did force a stop in Stratford International for this though)

View attachment 182007

It’s not treating it as that, it’s just that Farringdon isn’t a London terminal, so they technically can’t sell a London terminals ticket to it, regardless of the easement.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2025 ==

I think as per the direction of travel in post #1 he needs a ticket FROM London Terminals TO Dover, and to force a planner to include ‘plus HS1’ needs to use St Pancras as origin.

That was poorly worded by me, the easement applies in both directions.

 

[drueberflug]

This is the issue here. TrainSplit will happily issue the ticket from for example London Bridge, and of course you can start your journey short on that at Farringdon.

Neither Blackfriars nor Farringdon are isn't a London Terminus in any way, but London Bridge is, so Trainsplit probably looked up a ticket from London Terminals for the London Bridge-Dover query, and then partially applied the easement to make the leg from London Bridge to St Pancras available.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2025 ==

It’s not treating it as that, it’s just that Farringdon isn’t a London terminal, so they technically can’t sell a London terminals ticket to it, regardless of the easement.

Oh well, if that's what the rules are, no tickets routed via HS1 should officially be available from Farringdon, putting passengers in an awkward situation...

 

[Benjwri]

Neither Blackfriars nor Farringdon are a London Terminus in any way, but London Bridge is, so Trainsplit probably looked up a ticket from London Terminals for the London Bridge-Dover query.

Blackfriars is a member of the London Terminals group…

Regardless this is my point. TrainSplit cannot sell a London terminals ticket if you input Farringdon, as it is not a London Terminal, and they would be telling you to start your journey short. Therefore there is no valid ticket they can retail you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2025 ==

Oh well, if that's what the rules are, no tickets routed via HS1 should officially be available from Farringdon, putting passengers in an awkward situation...

This is exactly the case, there doesn’t seem to be a ticket that can be issued for this journey within the rule. In reality passengers can buy it from further and start short, but I agree it’s not ideal, as with many ticketing issues.

 

[drueberflug]

Can you link the fare you're trying to buy on BRFares?

I could imagine that the two fares the OP intended to buy a Farringdon/Blackfriars to Dover ticket, though the easement they cited from applies to London Terminal to Dover tickets routed via HS1.

• https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=ZFD&dest=DVP&rlc=TST&period=20250608
• https://tickets-beta.railforums.co....=true&adv:ob:MaxChanges=7&adv:ob:Via=7015550P

 

[miklcct]

I could imagine that the two fares the OP intended to buy a Farringdon/Blackfriars to Dover ticket, though the easement they cited from applies to London Terminal to Dover tickets routed via HS1.

• https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=ZFD&dest=DVP&rlc=TST&period=20250608
• https://tickets-beta.railforums.co....=true&adv:ob:MaxChanges=7&adv:ob:Via=7015550P

I am not interested in the slow route. I expect I can get a London Terminals - Dover ticket by entering Blackfriars as the origin on Trainsplit, but it can't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2025 ==

Unfortunately the fear, uncertainty and doubt about ticketing, being unable to buy a ticket from multiple retailers had resulted in me deciding to travel earlier and use the slow route out instead, planning to upgrade later in case I want to return high speed.

 

[drueberflug]

Unfortunately the fear, uncertainty and doubt about ticketing, being unable to buy a ticket from multiple retailers had resulted in me deciding to travel earlier and use the slow route out instead, planning to upgrade later in case I want to return high speed.

I mean, though I'd usually discourage from using them, the Trainline would 100% sell you a valid ticket from Blackfriars, as stated above.

 

[OscarH]

Regardless this is my point. TrainSplit cannot sell a London terminals ticket if you input Farringdon, as it is not a London Terminal, and they would be telling you to start your journey short. Therefore there is no valid ticket they can retail you.

Yeah, selling a ticket from Farringdon is blatantly selling a start short ticket, and shouldn't be done. Having had some interesting encounters with Farringdon gateline, I'm not sure I'd want to risk it

Blackfriars clearly is intended to be valid if London Bridge works, it sounds like there's possibly a bug there. To be honest, from a quick look at the easement, I don't understand how it would make London Bridge or any other southern terminal valid via Farringdon given its only a fare route easement, so that'll need investigating at a more sensible hour.

Just to add: if there are no Return fares available, Raileasy/Trainsplit will immediately just assume the route is using Single Leg Pricing.
The thing is, it probably treats Farringdon as "London Underground Zone 1" instead of "London Terminals" in this situation, from where there are no return fares offered, totally ignoring the easement.
(I did force a stop in Stratford International for this though)

View attachment 182007

It should only do this in specific cases where it thinks there could be SLP, it isn't dumb enough to just chuck it in all cases. Clearly isn't working as intended though

 

[MrJeeves]

To be honest, from a quick look at the easement, I don't understand how it would make London Bridge or any other southern terminal valid via Farringdon given its only a fare route easement, so that'll need investigating at a more sensible hour.

I agree.

There's also two versions of the easement, for some reason:

Easement 700847 | eNRG Browser

enrgbrowser.com

Easement 700936 | eNRG Browser

enrgbrowser.com

Trainline-based booking pages, such as EMR's (https://www.buytickets.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/) are able to parse that easement correctly, and will gladly sell you a valid ticket for your journey

Or, perhaps, incorrectly...?

As far as I can see, the easement would never work the way that it's written for journey planners to understand. It simply doesn't make sense.

Trainline may either be inadvertently permitting it, or their routeing engine has a manual workaround to permit the ticket to be sold in accordance with the textual version of the easement.

Blackfriars clearly is intended to be valid if London Bridge works, it sounds like there's possibly a bug there.

I haven't been able to see the site selling a London Terminals - Dover +HS1 ticket for any searches from London Bridge. It does sell a Zone U1 ticket, just like it does from Farringdon.

 

[drueberflug]

Or, perhaps, incorrectly...?

As far as I can see, the easement would never work the way that it's written for journey planners to understand. It simply doesn't make sense.

Trainline may either be inadvertently permitting it, or their routeing engine has a manual workaround to permit the ticket to be sold in accordance with the textual version of the easement.

Let's put it like this: Trainline, just like Raileasy, has NR accreditation, though we all know that they sometimes don't adhere to some rules, restrictions etc. as they should.
However, the itinerary given by the Trainline should be contractually valid, just as with Raileasy, and should hence allow one to get to their destination as booked.

With them having countless manual workarounds, incl. regarding ticket delivery methods, I wouldn't wonder if they did manually implement the textual version of the easement(s).

But as I have understood electronic easement 702143, as the journey would possibly start at Blackfriars and would then pass through Farringdon and St Pancras, going via HS1 should be a permitted route, though no tickets for Blackfriars-Dover routed accordingly are available.

 

[miklcct]

There is a small likelihood I want to stop off at Welling on my return journey. If I want to do so I will need to travel high speed to Ebbsfleet, then change to Gravesend, then Dartford, Welling into London.

If this is the case, what excess ticket I'll need to get on top of my non-HS1 return to allow travelling via the HS1 to Ebbsfleet and Gravesend before continuing on the traditional line to London?

 

[OscarH]

But as I have understood electronic easement 702143, as the journey would possibly start at Blackfriars and would then pass through Farringdon and St Pancras, going via HS1 should be a permitted route, though no tickets for Blackfriars-Dover routed accordingly are available.

The problem is that it's a positive "fare route" easement, which in my opinion (which I think @MrJeeves shares) specifically covers the case where the journey follows a permitted route from the origin to the destination, but the ticket route check fails (eg you go via London on a not via London ticket). The easement allows that failure to be ignored.

What it doesn't do it make a non-permitted route permitted, which is what you'd need here.

I'm not sure what you could do with easements to fix it off the top of my head, it would be messy. "any of" via points of Stratford International and Ebbsfleet International could perhaps work, with a fare route easement to allow the traditional route, though I haven't thought about it in too much detail.

Let's put it like this: Trainline, just like Raileasy, has NR accreditation, though we all know that they sometimes don't adhere to some rules, restrictions etc. as they should.
However, the itinerary given by the Trainline should be contractually valid, just as with Raileasy, and should hence allow one to get to their destination as booked.

With them having countless manual workarounds, incl. regarding ticket delivery methods, I wouldn't wonder if they did manually implement the textual version of the easement(s).

I certainly wouldn't blame them for doing a manual workaround, given it's the public facing information says it's allowed

 

[andythebrave]

I'd buy from St Pancras to get the London Terminals ticket and travel from whichever of the stations listed in the easement I wanted to use.
The wording of it seems clear that this is what it is for.

 

[redreni]

There is a small likelihood I want to stop off at Welling on my return journey. If I want to do so I will need to travel high speed to Ebbsfleet, then change to Gravesend, then Dartford, Welling into London.

If this is the case, what excess ticket I'll need to get on top of my non-HS1 return to allow travelling via the HS1 to Ebbsfleet and Gravesend before continuing on the traditional line to London?

A one-way change of route excess charged at half the difference between the not HS1 fare you paid and the equivalent 'plus high speed' fare, I think. Or the HS1 upgrade, if cheaper, which I doubt it would be. They may try to sell the upgrade rather than the excess; I'd be having none of that if I were you.

You said you were getting a period return with a 16-25 Railcard. If that's off-peak returns, the fare difference is £5.55 so afaik the one way change of route excess should be £2.78.