Cancelled Train - no refund?

[Victoria Blyth]

Hi,

I am after a bit of advice please

I booked train tickets, with Eastcoast, to travel to London on 31st January. When I arrived at the station, my train had been cancelled. As I was travelling to a meeting, the next train would have arrived too late, therefore was of no use to me. I did speak to the station staff, but as I had booked my tickets online, they advised me to request a refund online. I came home, and did so, immediately (awful to find on the eastcoast website though)!
I have just received a response - as follows. My problem is, my tickets are advance tickets:

Ticket type - Advance 1st

Validity: Booked train only

I have them in an envelope to post now - obviously will need to send them by registered post. If I am reading this response correctly, I will not be refunded?? How can this be right? I agree that if i just decided not to travel, it would be tough luck, but they cancelled the train! The tickets cost £156.50 - have I really lost this money, even though this was not my fault?

Thank you for your e-mail received on 31 January regarding your journey with us from London Kings Cross to Durham on 31 January.

I am very sorry that you had to abandon your journey due to the cancellation of our service. On this occasion, we obviously let you down and I sincerely apologise.

As you have contacted us within 28 days, I may be able to offer you a refund. Under the terms of our Passenger’s Charter, if the train you catch is cancelled or delayed, and you decide not to travel, we will give you a full refund and you will not be charged an administration fee. The exception is most Advance purchase tickets (i.e. where you must specify the date and time you will travel); they are sold on a ‘no refund’ basis.

 

[clagmonster]

Condition 26 is your friend:
"26. Refunds on tickets that have not been used.
If you decide not to use a ticket (other than a Season Ticket - see Condition 36) to make all
or part of your intended journey, then:
(a) if the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed or your reservation will not
be honoured, you decide not to travel and at that time you return the unused
ticket to any ticket office, the Train Company responsible for that ticket office will,
if it is in a position to do so, give you an immediate full refund as shown in
Condition 27."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Now, you say that you spoke to the station staff at York to seek a refund, first question from me, were the staff you spoke to in the ticket office?

 

[LexyBoy]

E. YOUR REFUND RIGHTS
26. Refunds on tickets that have not been used.
If you decide not to use a ticket (other than a Season Ticket - see Condition 36) to make all or part of your intended journey, then:
(a) if the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed or your reservation will not be honoured, you decide not to travel and at that time you return the unused ticket to any ticket offce, the Train Company responsible for that ticket offce will, if it is in a position to do so, give you an immediate full refund as shown in Condition 27.

You should therefore receive a full refund.

Take a colour photocopy or scan of the tickets before you send them off.

If you had decided not to travel for some other reason, there would be no refund on Advance tickets (other tickets could be refunded less £10 admin fee).

 

[RJ]

Hi,

I am after a bit of advice please

I booked train tickets, with Eastcoast, to travel to London on 31st January. When I arrived at the station, my train had been cancelled. As I was travelling to a meeting, the next train would have arrived too late, therefore was of no use to me. I did speak to the station staff, but as I had booked my tickets online, they advised me to request a refund online. I came home, and did so, immediately (awful to find on the eastcoast website though)!
I have just received a response - as follows. My problem is, my tickets are advance tickets:

Ticket type - Advance 1st

Validity: Booked train only

I have them in an envelope to post now - obviously will need to send them by registered post. If I am reading this response correctly, I will not be refunded?? How can this be right? I agree that if i just decided not to travel, it would be tough luck, but they cancelled the train! The tickets cost £156.50 - have I really lost this money, even though this was not my fault?

Thank you for your e-mail received on 31 January regarding your journey with us from London Kings Cross to Durham on 31 January.

I am very sorry that you had to abandon your journey due to the cancellation of our service. On this occasion, we obviously let you down and I sincerely apologise.

As you have contacted us within 28 days, I may be able to offer you a refund. Under the terms of our Passenger’s Charter, if the train you catch is cancelled or delayed, and you decide not to travel, we will give you a full refund and you will not be charged an administration fee. The exception is most Advance purchase tickets (i.e. where you must specify the date and time you will travel); they are sold on a ‘no refund’ basis.

Hi,

What exactly is it you need help with? Unfortuantely the T&Cs of the Advance tickets do state that provision for refunds is restricted or non-existent. In times of disruption, they would have been obliged to get you to your destination, but not to provide a refund.

 

[Victoria Blyth]

Phew! Thank you so much for putting my mind to rest

I have scanned the tickets in to my computer, and will send them registered (just in case)! Thank you for your help - what a stupid mail to send out though - is it just me, or does it read as though I am not entitled to a refund?!

Ah well, fingers crossed

 

[LexyBoy]

As you have contacted us within 28 days, I may be able to offer you a refund. Under the terms of our Passenger’s Charter, if the train you catch is cancelled or delayed, and you decide not to travel, we will give you a full refund and you will not be charged an administration fee. The exception is most Advance purchase tickets (i.e. where you must specify the date and time you will travel); they are sold on a ‘no refund’ basis.[/I][/I]

What East Coast's passenger charter actually says is:

Cancelled or delayed trains

You can apply for a full refund on an unused ticket if your train is cancelled or if your seat reservation will not be honoured. You will not be charged an administration fee.

If you have purchased an Advance ticket and your train is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on the another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed). If however as a result of the service disruption you decide not to travel, a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee.

 

[ainsworth74]

In times of disruption, they would have been obliged to get you to your destination, but not to provide a refund.

I disagree according to NRE here if the service you're booked on is cancelled you're entitled to a refund:

If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed). If, as a result, you decide not to travel, a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee.

 

[LexyBoy]

(same info as ainsworth74's post)

 

[clagmonster]

In that case, the passenger charter appears to override the requirement in Condition 26 to seek a refund at the ticket office when the decision is made not to travel.

 

[AlterEgo]

In that case, the passenger charter appears to override the requirement in Condition 26 to seek a refund at the ticket office when the decision is made not to travel.

Indeed. I agree with you and a full refund should be offered.

The quality of East Coast's responses to enquiries and complaints varies greatly, in my experience. I think they have made an error in suggesting you are not entitled to a refund. I advise you give them a ring to discuss the situation.

 

[John @ home]

the T&Cs of the Advance tickets do state that provision for refunds is restricted or non-existent. In times of disruption, they would have been obliged to get you to your destination, but not to provide a refund.

This is incorrect advice.

Ticket Sales Terms and Conditions

Advance Tickets

If the East Coast train on which you are reserved is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed), or to refund your ticket provided your journey has not yet commenced.

http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/travel-i...nformation/ticket-sales-terms-and-conditions/

 

[LexyBoy]

edit:incorrect infoIn response to RJ's post above (now edited) - the section of Condition 26 quoted by clagmonster and me certainly omits parts of the condition but nothing relevant to the OP. However, I did somehow fail to register the requirement to return the ticket "at that time", which would indeed require a refund request to be made "on the spot".

EC's passenger charter does not require this and thus I believe they are bound by the terms of their passenger charter (which of course can be - and is - more generous than the NRCoC), which would require a full refund.

Additionally, I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect a refund after the event in the case of an Advance ticket; especially as people are so used to being sent back to the point of purchase for refunds.

 

[AlterEgo]

In response to RJ's post above (now edited) - the section of Condition 26 quoted by clagmonster and me certainly omits parts of the condition but nothing relevant to the OP. However, I did somehow fail to register the requirement to return the ticket "at that time", which would indeed require a refund request to be made "on the spot".

This came up recently - I have never heard of a refund for an abandoned journey being declined simply because the passenger decided to write in, rather than go to a booking office. Condition 26 is, generally, tacitly viewed as unfair as there may be many situations where it is simply impractical or unreasonable for the customer to get to a booking office. The requirement is usually quietly overlooked.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The terms of the ticket are that they are non-refundable and, unfortunately, I think EC are trying to use that to refuse to pay out. The relevant Condition in the NRCoC is:

....

E. YOUR REFUND RIGHTS

26. Refunds on tickets that have not been used.

If you decide not to use a ticket (other than a Season Ticket - see Condition 36) to make all
or part of your intended journey, then:

(a) if the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed or your reservation will not
be honoured, you decide not to travel and at that time you return the unused
ticket to any ticket office, the Train Company responsible for that ticket office will,
if it is in a position to do so, give you an immediate full refund as shown in
Condition 27.

(b) if paragraph (a) does not apply and the ticket has been bought from a Train
Company’s ticket office (or a self-service machine) and you return your ticket at
any Train Company’s ticket office no later than 28 days after the expiry of the
ticket’s validity, you will receive a refund (subject to the notes below); or

(c) if paragraph (a) does not apply, the ticket has been bought from a Train
Company’s telesales office or a Train Company’s internet website and you
return the ticket to an address notified by that Train Company no later than
28 days after the expiry of the ticket’s validity, you will receive a refund
(subject to the notes below); or

(d) if paragraph (a) does not apply and the ticket has been bought from a travel agent,
if you return the ticket to that agent no later than 28 days after the expiry of the
ticket’s validity, you will receive a refund (subject to the notes below).

Notes:

(i) The amount of the refund will normally take into account any use you have made
of the ticket and in some circumstances no refund will be paid.

(ii) In the case of a refund made under (b), (c), or (d) above, you may have to pay a
reasonable administrative charge (not exceeding £10).

(iii) Your right to receive a refund of all or part of the price paid may be restricted
in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets, for example,
those with an advance purchase requirement. These rights are set out in the
notices and other publications of the relevant Train Companies.

(iv) In the case of a refund under (b), (c), or (d) above, you will not receive an
immediate refund but your refund application will be processed as soon as
reasonably practicable.

(v) In the case of an Electronic Ticket, the refund process may require you to allow
the person making the refund to delete the stored ticket data or to demonstrate to
that person that you have done so in accordance with the conditions of that ticket.

....

Part C applies to you and as you can see in the notes, they could say that the conditions of the advance ticket state there is no refunds so you get nothing. A ticket bought at the ticket office at the departure station would almost certainly have been collected in there and then, and processed for a full refund, but because yours was bought online they are told by ATOC (which EC is part of) not to do this. It is worth noting that if it had been bought at another ticket office, the likelihood of the ticket office passing on the tickets for a full refund by the issuing company would have been quite high. Even if they told you to go back to the office of issue, I reckon the issuing office would process it at no charge.

Personally I think they are hiding behind rules (which does them no favours). I'm not sure of the legal status of the company failing to provide the agreed service, but it might be an avenue to explore. The Passenger's Charter would be a good thing to look at also.

 

[AlterEgo]

Personally I think they are hiding behind rules (which does them no favours).

I think it is rather a case of an error made by whoever sent the response to the OP. I'd be astonished if this was East Coast's policy; they are one of the more generous and sympathetic TOCs out there. (In my view, anyway)

 

[LexyBoy]

Part C applies to you and as you can see in the notes, they could say that the conditions of the advance ticket state there is no refunds so you get nothing.

By the letter, (c) applies as you say - although (a) is a fairer interpretation of the situation (taking into account AlterEgo's post above).

However, the T&Cs of Advance tickets state that if you decide not to travel as a result of a cancellation or delay of over 60 minutes, a full refund with no admin fee will be due. Thus note (iii) is irrelevant in this case; refund rights are restricted, except in the case of disruption.

 

[YorkshireRider]

Im sure the OP will get a refund, while the last line of the response she recieved is a bit confusing, its probably just been typed in haste or been copyed and pasted in and relates to the rules for getting a refund for unused tickets. However obviously it does not relate to unused tickets when a service has been cancelled, just a simple mistake i reckon by someone who has many emails and complaints etc to deal with in a day.

 

[142094]

To add to this, I generally have found EC easy to deal with when sending off advances for refunds (I haven't been refused a refund to date when I've had to not make a trip due to a cancelled train).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....However, the T&Cs of Advance tickets state that if you decide not to travel as a result of a cancellation or delay of over 60 minutes, a full refund with no admin fee will be due. Thus note (iii) is irrelevant in this case; refund rights are restricted, except in the case of disruption.

That's a fair point, not one I had realised when posting previously.

 

[Victoria Blyth]

Blooming heck! I thought this would be a simple yay or nay:

I will be sending the tickets back tomorrow morning and will let you know what happens. In the event of refusal, someone has offered to chain themselves with me in protest - watch this space!

Thank you for the varying advise -truly appreciated.

 

[LexyBoy]

Simple answer is that you're entitled to a refund, as per EC's passenger charter. Please do let up know how you get on!

 

[applepie]

No insightful advice from me, but good luck - and do let us know how it goes.