Cancelled train - Langwathby to Leeds (Carlisle-Settle line)

[ref2468]

I would really appreciate any advice regards the below.

I was due to get the train from Langwathby to Leeds on Sunday 18th March. Before travelling to the station I double checked the train was running to which it said it was on-time. Upon arrival at Langwathby several other passengers informed me the train had been cancelled due to a 3ft snow drift further down the line (the station is unmanned but they had rang through on the station telephone).

With no other trains running on the Carlisle - Settle route I sought a lift to the nearest station (Penrith) some 6miles away. Ordinarily I always buy my ticket on the train as 1) there is no ticket machine/staff at the station and 2) you can't purchase tickets online using a Dales Railcard.

I explained the situation to the staff at Penrith and that I needed to travel to Leeds. They said as I did not have a valid ticket I would need to purchase a new ticket for the route (Penrith - Manchester and Manchester to Leeds). This cost £49.50 for a single. On the Settle service I would have paid £8.

In terms of time difference as the Langwathby - Leeds train is so slow, in total I was only 'delayed' by just over 45 minutes in total even with the travel to Penrith and the change at Manchester.

Any advice on whether I am eligible to claim back the difference in fair (and if so how) would be most welcomed. With thanks in advance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure where you are getting £8 from as the cheapest Langwathby to Leeds single is £24.40, discounted to £16.10 with Railcard.

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=LGW&dest=LDS&rte=10&tkt=SDS

 

[bb21]

While it would be nice if you were entitled to the difference back, I don't think you are, strictly speaking, whether the original fare was £8 or £24 as pointed out by Bletchleyite.

There is no contract in place because you didn't purchase any ticket. As the service did not run at all you had no implied contract either (which you would have prior to purchasing the ticket if the Settle-Carlisle train ran and you got onboard). I can't see any claim from a contractual point of view.

Put simply: you made a journey, and you paid the appropriate fare for that journey. The fact that a cheaper route was blocked is in theory irrelevant as you had no contract for being conveyed on it.

I can only suggest that you write to the company and hope they issue a goodwill gesture. If you don't ask, you won't get. Sorry if this isn't what you want to hear.

 

[sheff1]

Did you speak to Northern* via the help point at Langwathby ? If so what, exactly, did they advise you to do ?



* I assume that is who answers the call.

 

[IanXC]

While it would be nice if you were entitled to the difference back, I don't think you are, strictly speaking, whether the original fare was £8 or £24 as pointed out by Bletchleyite.

There is no contract in place because you didn't purchase any ticket. As the service did not run at all you had no implied contract either (which you would have prior to purchasing the ticket if the Settle-Carlisle train ran and you got onboard). I can't see any claim from a contractual point of view.

Put simply: you made a journey, and you paid the appropriate fare for that journey. The fact that a cheaper route was blocked is in theory irrelevant as you had no contract for being conveyed on it.

I can only suggest that you write to the company and hope they issue a goodwill gesture. If you don't ask, you won't get. Sorry if this isn't what you want to hear.

I'm not sure it is as clear as that, there is of course the issue of a ticket not yet having been purchased, and I am not clear what the implementation of this looks like, but:

Customers should to not be forced to pay more because of disruption. In the eventuality that they are forced to pay more, ‘no quibble’ refunds should be provided.

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us/publications.html?task=file.download&id=469771025

 

[Ianigsy]

Others may wish to check this, but I get Penrith to Leeds splitting at Preston down to £39.10 so our original poster may have a case for not being sold the best value ticket for the journey being made, particularly as the staff at Penrith were made well aware of their predicament and routing via Preston is a reasonable option for that journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Others may wish to check this, but I get Penrith to Leeds splitting at Preston down to £39.10 so our original poster may have a case for not being sold the best value ticket for the journey being made, particularly as the staff at Penrith were made well aware of their predicament and routing via Preston is a reasonable option for that journey.

Staff are not required to offer splits unless the passenger specifically requests and details them.

 

[bb21]

I'm not sure it is as clear as that, there is of course the issue of a ticket not yet having been purchased, and I am not clear what the implementation of this looks like, but:



https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us/publications.html?task=file.download&id=469771025

I don't think from a contractual point of view there is much in doubt.

Some of the PIDD recommendations can be open to interpretation AIUI, simply because it is practically impossible to have them solidly codified, and can open all sorts of wormy cans, which is where discretion comes in useful. My understanding is that it is widely accepted discretion should be exercised unless there are good reasons not to, but each case has to be considered on its own merits. YMMV.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I'm not sure it is as clear as that, there is of course the issue of a ticket not yet having been purchased, and I am not clear what the implementation of this looks like, but:



https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us/publications.html?task=file.download&id=469771025

There's an internal document covering that, but the example it gives is someone holding (for example) a ticket routed not via London having to travel via London due to disruption, in which case the ticket should be endorsed accordingly.

It doesn't cover making a journey from a completely different station, unfortunately.

 

[lyndhurst25]

The £8 fare is the Dales Railcard Settle & Carlisle line winter offer fare.

EDIT - brfares.com seems to think that it's actually £9 this year.
http://www.brfares.com/#!rovers?nlc=I502

 

[marcouk2]

Northern ticket acceptance was in place for TPE on any reasonable route on Sunday,

I tried to travel from Carlisle to Leeds myself on Sunday, got as far as Kirkby Stephen before being turned back and then travelled on a TPE service to Manchester instead, my northern only ticket was accepted without a quibble by the TPE guard.

 

[Ianigsy]

Staff are not required to offer splits unless the passenger specifically requests and details them.

I appreciate that, however in this case there was evidently a discussion as to the customer's ticketing options. If I were in that situation and being sold a ticket for travel via Manchester, that would set alarm bells ringing as being sent out of my way and on premium TOCs.

 

[ref2468]

The £8 fare is the Dales Railcard Settle & Carlisle line winter offer fare.

EDIT - brfares.com seems to think that it's actually £9 this year.
http://www.brfares.com/#!rovers?nlc=I502

Thanks everyone for all the advice thus far. To confirm, it is the 'Day Ranger' ticket you can get during winter with a Dales Railcard to which I stand corrected as above is now £9 (not £8 as referenced in the original thread). Its only possible to buy on the train hence I didn't have ticket when arriving at Penrith.

It sounds like the best option is to write to Northern to see if they would refund the difference as an offer of goodwill. Should this just be a letter and/or delay repay? While in theory the trains from Penrith - Man - Leeds were 'on-time' this still resulted in my proposed arrival to Leeds being delayed by ~45minutes. Is this valid for Delay repay if Northern don't offer goodwill?

Thanks again for everyone's help.

 

[bb21]

Lodge it as a normal complaint. Mention all those facts you just said and point out you were 45 minutes late. I would expect at least Delay Repay for 30 minutes to be awarded, preferably more. Would seem a bit stingy to me otherwise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I appreciate that, however in this case there was evidently a discussion as to the customer's ticketing options. If I were in that situation and being sold a ticket for travel via Manchester, that would set alarm bells ringing as being sent out of my way and on premium TOCs.

The 49.50 fare is Any Permitted, there are only two walk up fares, an Anytime Day Single and an Anytime Return, no Off Peak fares. Simple (tm)

They are set by Northern, not VTWC/TPE.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern ticket acceptance was in place for TPE on any reasonable route on Sunday,

I tried to travel from Carlisle to Leeds myself on Sunday, got as far as Kirkby Stephen before being turned back and then travelled on a TPE service to Manchester instead, my northern only ticket was accepted without a quibble by the TPE guard.

The difficulty there is that the ticket wasn't held. If I recall correctly the railway doesn't have to actually sell tickets for the "wrong" journey once the disruption has been made known, only to accept those already issued.

That is somewhat of a gap in relation to where tickets are sold on board, though.

 

[AlterEgo]

Staff are not required to offer splits unless the passenger specifically requests and details them.

Not only are they not required to, they are not allowed to do so proactively, as this is a breach of impartial retailing rules.

 

[ref2468]

Lodge it as a normal complaint. Mention all those facts you just said and point out you were 45 minutes late. I would expect at least Delay Repay for 30 minutes to be awarded, preferably more. Would seem a bit stingy to me otherwise.

Thank you - will raise as a complaint to Northern and update on here when I hear back.

Also, to confirm on an earlier question when speaking with the operator (on the station phone) they just informed the train was cancelled due to a snow drift at Kirby Stephen. There were no bus replacement services and no guidance as to how to complete our journey. I was fortunate I was able to get a lift to Penrith station as I needed to be in Leeds for Monday morning.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you - will raise as a complaint to Northern and update on here when I hear back.

Also, to confirm on an earlier question when speaking with the operator (on the station phone) they just informed the train was cancelled due to a snow drift at Kirby Stephen. There were no bus replacement services and no guidance as to how to complete our journey. I was fortunate I was able to get a lift to Penrith station as I needed to be in Leeds for Monday morning.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

In my view I would be inclined to give you the difference back as a gesture of goodwill if it was me handling the case.

 

[yorkie]

I believe the minimum appropriate course of action would be to treat it as Delay Repay; this would give you half your money back for a delay of 30-59 minutes.

If you then deduct the £9 you would have spent, that leaves you 'only' £15.75 out of pocket, which isn't too bad given the huge differential in fares.

However it is possible Northern will compensate you beyond that level, given the unusual circumstances. I hope that they will.

 

[30907]

Your complaint might also point out to Northern that there was no info about problems on their website, which, given that the first train each way didn't make it through, is not impressive.
Info was certainly posted and tweeted later that day, though, as I saw it - so make sure of your facts on that.

 

[ref2468]

Your complaint might also point out to Northern that there was no info about problems on their website, which, given that the first train each way didn't make it through, is not impressive.
Info was certainly posted and tweeted later that day, though, as I saw it - so make sure of your facts on that.

Thanks for the info - will do

 

[sheff1]

Also, to confirm on an earlier question when speaking with the operator (on the station phone) they just informed the train was cancelled due to a snow drift at Kirby Stephen. There were no bus replacement services and no guidance as to how to complete our journey.

Pity. If it ever happens again you might want to specifically ask how you could complete the journey. Post #11 advises that ticket acceptance was in place on the day so, in my view*, the most you should have needed to pay was £29.80 (for an undiscounted Carlisle to Leeds via Appleby single).

Please let us know what the outcome of this is.

>>>>>>>>>>>
*Edit:
I note this point

The difficulty there is that the ticket wasn't held. If I recall correctly the railway doesn't have to actually sell tickets for the "wrong" journey once the disruption has been made known, only to accept those already issued.

but the ticket could, presumably, be bought on line and collected from Penrith.

 

[randyrippley]

what would the price have been if routed direct Preston-Leeds rather than via Manchester?

Or was Lancaster -Leeds open?

 

[bb21]

Penrith - Leeds only has one routing on walk-on fares.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Thank you - will raise as a complaint to Northern and update on here when I hear back.

Also, to confirm on an earlier question when speaking with the operator (on the station phone) they just informed the train was cancelled due to a snow drift at Kirby Stephen. There were no bus replacement services and no guidance as to how to complete our journey. I was fortunate I was able to get a lift to Penrith station as I needed to be in Leeds for Monday morning.

If the telephone at Langwathby is the same as most others on the S&C then the phone goes direct to the relevant Signalbox, and not to a TOC control centre.