Cancelled train Advance e-ticket

[trainophile]

Two hours ago I bought Advance Singles for a day trip from Bridlington to Scarborough. I now find that my return train at 15:02 is cancelled.

Can I get a train either side of this, probably preferably the one beforehand, and if so do I have to get it agreed with the station staff or TM?

 

[_toommm_]

You can get one either side, as long as it’s with the same TOC. If the one either side leaves you more than an hour delay, you are eligible to be re-routed, but that is difficult to get people to do.

You don’t need to get your ticket endorsed, but I just tell the guard why I’m not on my booked service to save them asking.

 

[trainophile]

Thanks. I asked the guy in the ticket office at Bridlington and he said that would be okay.

Just explained to the ticket checker on the 14:02 who is fine with it too.

 

[Adam Williams]

You can get one either side, as long as it’s with the same TOC

Does the NRCoT actually say this?

 

[Watershed]

Does the NRCoT actually say this?

The Advance ticket terms do.

 

[Adam Williams]

The Advance ticket terms do.

Do they?

 

[Watershed]

Do they?

They do not explicitly mention this scenario, but I fail to see how else they could be interpreted:

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

The cancellation of the booked service will cause a delay, therefore the passenger is entitled to take the next available train(s).

It would be a complete non-starter for a TOC to seek to argue that a cancellation doesn't constitute a delay, or that "while travelling" excludes disruption which happens before the first train is boarded.

 

[Adam Williams]

They do not explicitly mention this scenario, but I fail to see how else they could be interpreted:


The cancellation of the booked service will cause a delay, therefore the passenger is entitled to take the next available train(s).

It would be a complete non-starter for a TOC to seek to argue that a cancellation doesn't constitute a delay, or that "while travelling" excludes disruption which happens before the first train is boarded.

How is "next available" equivalent to "either side" of the booked train? Does next not strictly imply after the scheduled departure?

 

[yorkie]

Notwithstanding any other issues (e.g. TOC restrictions) not applicable to this thread, it is generally accepted that you can take the train before, or after; the contractual position would preclude the TOC forcing you to take the one after.

However this really should be made much clearer; it's yet another example of where the industry could provide clear reassurances to people, but chooses not to.

RDG will no doubt say it isn't their remit, the DfT don't care and ORR will say it's nothing to do with them, and so on...

 

[Watershed]

How is "next available" equivalent to "either side" of the booked train?

"Next available" will not necessarily be exactly the same as "either side", that is true. Rather, it permits you to take the first train that will take you towards your destination (subject to the ticket's route/TOC restrictions), which - if you turn up to the station in time - will likely be the train before your booked one.

To take the train after, you instead rely on NRCoT condition 9.4.

It is certainly a lot less clear than it could and should be, but if you drill down into the detail, I think a TOC would find it very difficult to justify taking any action against a passenger who travelled on the previous or following trains.

 

[Adam Williams]

Rather, it permits you to take the first train that will take you towards your destination (subject to the ticket's route/TOC restrictions), which - if you turn up to the station in time - will likely be the train before your booked one.

This feels like a bit of a stretch to use in the general case. A lot of the services from my local station are hourly, is turning up over an hour before the scheduled departure a likely thing for a passenger to do?

I really wouldn't be comfortable telling a customer to take the train before based on the wording in the Advance Ts and Cs. There might well be a consumer contract law basis for being able to board it, and you could argue along the lines you are doing here in this thread - but we barely manage to convince TOCs that they've trampled over passenger's rights when they are written in black and white in the ticket type terms and conditions or the NRCoT, let alone when it's simply something "generally accepted" or particularly nuanced along the lines of the argument you're making. I'm talking really basic stuff - like letting a passenger travel according to a printed itinerary issued by an accredited retailer - staff can't get right due to poor training.

I 100% agree it's not clear enough right now.

 

[Watershed]

This feels like a bit of a stretch. A lot of the services from my local station are hourly, is turning up over an hour before the scheduled departure a likely thing for a passenger to do?

It really depends. If passengers are told about the cancellation in sufficient time, it's likely that a reasonable proportion will prefer to get to the station early in order to arrive at their destination on time (or early), rather than being late. I think that "next available" has to be interpreted in the context of what the passenger is able to catch, which in turn does depend on when the passenger is at the station.

I really wouldn't be comfortable telling a customer to take the train before based on the wording in the Advance Ts and Cs. There might well be a consumer contract law basis for being able to board it, and you could argue along the lines you are doing here in this thread - but we barely manage to convince TOCs that they've trampled over passenger's rights when they are written in black and white in the ticket type terms and conditions or the NRCoT, let alone when it's simply something "generally accepted" or something particularly nuanced. I'm talking really basic stuff - like letting a passenger travel according to a printed itinerary issued by an accredited retailer - staff can't get right.

I appreciate that - obviously retailers have to be more careful about giving general advice than anonymous individuals on the internet! That being said, I really don't think this is a controversial position. Even the most unhelpful TOCs and staff out there (including often clueless social media staff) seem to recognise the right to take the previous train in the event of cancellation.

 

[Starmill]

Company policy at West Midlands Trains is to tell customers they're not permitted to depart early if their service is cancelled, but their ticket wouldn't be valid usually on the previous service in the case of flexible tickets. I don't think this carries over to Advance tickets, where they adopt the more common position of the service before or the service after being advised. My view during the event when it happened to me was that they were obliged to carry me as close to the original arrival time as possible on one of their alternative services, but they refused to accept this. Whether they do this because they enjoy inconveniencing people at no benefit to themselves, or for some other inexplicable reasons, I don't know, as they wouldn't offer me any further detail as to why.

Unfortunately, if you'd like to travel on the preceeding service, it's advisable to ask therefore. My view is that this isn't necessary, but I would probably do it. I wouldn't bother asking if I'm travelling on the following service though. In the case of Northern I understand that their policy is to allow the service before as well as after but they don't necccesarily go on record about it, unlike say LNER who are very open that this is their policy. It's worth asking Northern to confirm on the record, and seeing what they say.

A lot of the services from my local station are hourly, is turning up over an hour before the scheduled departure a likely thing for a passenger to do?

Yes, if you know that your intended service is cancelled, obviously? Otherwise this question wouldn't arise. Surely you can see that plenty of people will be fine with getting to the station an hour early, in order to avoid arriving at their destination an hour late?

 

[Adam Williams]

Unfortunately, if you'd like to travel on the preceeding service, it's advisable to ask therefore.

This is the advice I would generally give.

Yes, if you know that your intended service is cancelled, obviously? Otherwise this question wouldn't arise. Surely you can see that plenty of people will be fine with getting to the station an hour early, in order to avoid arriving at their destination an hour late?

I'm not suggesting passengers themselves wouldn't be fine with getting there early - clearly many customers do want to travel on the preceding service, and I would like this to be explicitly permitted.

But rather, what I don't think necessarily follows very cleanly at all in a logical argument, is the idea the wording used with "If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey." in the Advance Ts and Cs can be construed to mean "next available whenever the passenger gets to the station, which may well be over an hour before scheduled departure because they might have looked at the live status data*/timetable". To me, it could quite well be interpreted as "next available in relation to booked departure time". After all, has the delay occurred before the train would've even left?

* If Darwin wasn't completely broken on the morning they wished to travel, of course!

 

[MikeWh]

After all, has the delay occurred before the train would've even left?

Yes, because it's cancelled.

 

[island]

I think it's a valid theoretical question to ask whether a cancellation is a delay, but not a useful practical one.

 

[Starmill]

I think it's a valid theoretical question to ask whether a cancellation is a delay, but not a useful practical one.

I guess the practical matters are the questions of whether it is known in advance that a train will be cancelled, and whether there is a possibility of its reinstatement.

I think that I would say if you're not advised in advance of the cancellation, either because you didn't search on live departures, or because you did but the train was not showing as cancelled, you're not advised and there is little you can do. If you are advised in advance, I think that the only reasonable course if action is to assume that the train won't be reinstated.

 

[island]

Yes that seems reasonable.