Can the Desiro City be considered a failure?

[Driver@swt]

I would say that it's a political decision, Bombardier equals British jobs as opposed to EU jobs at a time of Brexit. All sources inform me that the Siemens product is better quality than the Bombardier products.

 

[AM9]

This is not the feedback I’ve been hearing from GN station staff. Apparently they have been receiving a lot of negative comments, mainly about the seating. You may well be right that many don’t care, but it’s certainly a lot more than a small minority who hate them. There have been a fair few letters in my local paper too, which is quite something considering there are only two journeys each way at the moment.

Do we really think someone has initiated costly alterations to the interior simply to please just a “small minority” of passengers?

Same with the 387s - it’s still common to hear people commenting negatively about the hardness of the seats and the rough ride quality. Apart from that (and apart from the bizarre positioning of first class) the 387 actually isn’t too bad.

How many people, anywhere, make a point of speaking/writing to their MP/TOC etc., about how much they like their trains/services? In my experience, virtually none, they have no need to. How many pop up out of the woodwork to complain, most of those who feel that they have a problem, - especially once they have heard others when a MeToo chorus starts. It's a herd mentality. A few of them might grind on about it at every opportunity ad nauseum.
And so it is about new trains and something different like the class700s is a magnet for complainers. They make a lot of noise, - far more than their probable numbers might suggest. The majority of their passengers, currently those on the main Thameslink routes appreciate the greater capacity enabling them to actually board their trains and their increasing reliability. They are too busy in their lives to pursue a hobby of playing the old broken record. Local rags feed off this background noise, it is cheap journalism.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The only reason Aventra's are being ordered over Desiro City's is that Bombardier were "salty" over losing the TL contract, so offered them to everyone else at a reduced price so they can one up Siemens.

 

[bramling]

How many people, anywhere, make a point of speaking/writing to their MP/TOC etc., about how much they like their trains/services? In my experience, virtually none, they have no need to. How many pop up out of the woodwork to complain, most of those who feel that they have a problem, - especially once they have heard others when a MeToo chorus starts. It's a herd mentality. A few of them might grind on about it at every opportunity ad nauseum.
And so it is about new trains and something different like the class700s is a magnet for complainers. They make a lot of noise, - far more than their probable numbers might suggest. The majority of their passengers, currently those on the main Thameslink routes appreciate the greater capacity enabling them to actually board their trains and their increasing reliability. They are too busy in their lives to pursue a hobby of playing the old broken record. Local rags feed off this background noise, it is cheap journalism.

You can say what you like about Thameslink, or more specifically St Albans to London where for a 20 minute journey not much matters. Others want a comfortable seat, and by and large they currently get this. If passenger numbers continue to fall, especially in the high peak, all the arguments about not being able to board simply go out the window. As it is these arguments feel very remote on a railway where being unable to board is extremely rare indeed - and a largely 8-car railway at that.

Whichever way one looks at it, there was sufficient motivation to make costly changes to the interior (changes some said would never happen). The call for that must have come from somewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can say what you like about Thameslink, or more specifically St Albans to London where for a 20 minute journey not much matters. Others want a comfortable seat, and by and large they currently get this. If passenger numbers continue to fall, especially in the high peak, all the arguments about not being able to board simply go out the window.

And it might well be that their mid-life refurb, when those reductions have happened, will result in them being fitted with armrests at the expense of a bit of aisle width, and possibly a row or two taken out to increase pitch; if both were done that would make them basically equivalent to newer Electrostars in comfort (crikey, you could put Grammer IC3000s in and they would be lovely, not that I think they will, or the halfway house of 2+2 E3000s with armrests basically turning them into a 350/1 with wider doors). But as things are, that aisle width is a great benefit.

(Actually, I'm surprised they *haven't* got the 3+2 version of the E3000 in 2+2 formation - maybe it's more expensive than ironing boards?)

 

[AM9]

And it might well be that their mid-life refurb, when those reductions have happened, will result in them being fitted with armrests at the expense of a bit of aisle width, and possibly a row or two taken out to increase pitch; if both were done that would make them basically equivalent to newer Electrostars in comfort (crikey, you could put Grammer IC3000s in and they would be lovely, not that I think they will, or the halfway house of 2+2 E3000s with armrests basically turning them into a 350/1 with wider doors). But as things are, that aisle width is a great benefit.

(Actually, I'm surprised they *haven't* got the 3+2 version of the E3000 in 2+2 formation - maybe it's more expensive than ironing boards?)

If as some would wish, passenger number fall in 15-20 years, that could happen. Meanwhile, they are there to deliver a very high capacity service which in part requires maximum capacity rolling stock (as the alternative of putting more trains with bigger seats isn't an option, - especially if all it would give is better seats for a few). When Kings Cross fills up, the benefit of trains passing through the core will become obvious in terms of capacity from GN-land into the centre.

 

[Bungle965]

The only reason Aventra's are being ordered over Desiro City's is that Bombardier were "salty" over losing the TL contract, so offered them to everyone else at a reduced price so they can one up Siemens.

Do you actually have any evidence of this?
Sam

 

[DenmarkRail]

The reason the 700 seats are not the best is probably because they aren't really a priority on a service which acts as mainly an early Crossrail... There is not a need for 'comfy' seats on services which pass through the most busy part of London, where most people will be standing anyway... If you want more comfy seats from Brighton, get a Southern Service, which is not travelling through the most busy section of the national rail network.

As said by AM9, the fewer seats allow for a very high capacity service. Ultimately, the services within the core are pretty much a glorified tube service.

I do understand, that people from Bedford to Brighton, may have an issue with these seats, but there are alternatives... East Midlands to St Pancress (Sorry about spelling) and then Southern from Victoria to Brighton.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Do you actually have any evidence of this?
Sam

I think suing the TOC's everytime they lose a tender is sufficient evidence.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is the DfT allowed to do that? I thought OJEU notices and so on had to go out (at least for the time being).

The DfT made sure that Derby got several incremental orders for 387s, by asking Southern to buy them on behalf of Thameslink, and later GWR.
They all had to be compatible with Southern's Electrostars.
That gave Bombardier the time to sort out the Aventra for Crossrail, and Siemens had withdrawn its bid (having won Thameslink).

On another front, Derby has been unsuccessful selling high speed trains (125mph and above) since the HST.
GEC/Alstom got the EC/WC (Mk4/Pendolino) orders, and Hitachi the HS1 domestic 395s and then IEP/800s.
Alstom and Siemens won the Eurostar business.
Bombardier got the Voyager/Meridian orders, but this was before they owned the Derby plant (they were built in Belgium).
Alstom got the class 180 order from First Group for FGW.

Bombardier have also not offered DMUs in the UK since the 172s, and CAF and Stadler have filled the void.

 

[Domh245]

I think suing the TOC's everytime they lose a tender is sufficient evidence.

From memory they only sued following the merseyrail/stadler award. Have I forgotten some?

 

[Bald Rick]

This is not the feedback I’ve been hearing from GN station staff. Apparently they have been receiving a lot of negative comments, mainly about the seating. You may well be right that many don’t care, but it’s certainly a lot more than a small minority who hate them. There have been a fair few letters in my local paper too, which is quite something considering there are only two journeys each way at the moment.

Do we really think someone has initiated costly alterations to the interior simply to please just a “small minority” of passengers?

Same with the 387s - it’s still common to hear people commenting negatively about the hardness of the seats and the rough ride quality. Apart from that (and apart from the bizarre positioning of first class) the 387 actually isn’t too bad.

Well naturally people who don't like something will pipe up. I don't suppose many people who like the trains will go to station staff and say 'I really like these new trains', that's not what people do!

I've said this before, but I know a couple of hundred people who use 700s regularly, and (over) hear comments from many more people on board. Of those I have spoken to and asked their opinion of the train (about 50) the %ratio of dislike/like/don't care is about 5/70/25.

Not a huge sample, but better than anecdote.

 

[southern442]

Perhaps in terms of orders, with virtually all recent EMU orders being either for CAF or Bombardier products, perhaps it could be argued that the Desiro City model hasn't been as successful as the manufacturer intended it to be.

I was one of the biggest critics on the original Class 700 thread on this forum when they were first being built. However I now think the Desiro City is a fantastic train, having traveled on both 700's and 707's. The 700's are being fitted with small tables and WiFi which will make them even better. Not the biggest fan of the seats but to say they are uncomfortable would be an exaggeration.

 

[Mikey C]

I guess the answer is is to buy convertible trains which have padded seats with tables in the suburbs that magically retract into the floor when they reach the Thameslink core, with everyone then having to stand.

We have Bi-mode trains, we now need to buy Bi-seated trains

 

[AM9]

I guess the answer is is to buy convertible trains which have padded seats with tables in the suburbs that magically retract into the floor when they reach the Thameslink core, with everyone then having to stand.

We have Bi-mode trains, we now need to buy Bi-seated trains

Probably easier to just say bye to some of the seats.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The DfT made sure that Derby got several incremental orders for 387s, by asking Southern to buy them on behalf of Thameslink, and later GWR.
They all had to be compatible with Southern's Electrostars.

Yet 387s are not compatible with anything else in GTR's fleet. The MITRAC is different to that used in the 377s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bombardier have also not offered DMUs in the UK since the 172s, and CAF and Stadler have filled the void.

I must admit this to me is a shame, the Class 172 is a very good product, solving most of the problems (primarily build quality issues) of the earlier Turbostars.

 

[bramling]

The reason the 700 seats are not the best is probably because they aren't really a priority on a service which acts as mainly an early Crossrail... There is not a need for 'comfy' seats on services which pass through the most busy part of London, where most people will be standing anyway... If you want more comfy seats from Brighton, get a Southern Service, which is not travelling through the most busy section of the national rail network.

As said by AM9, the fewer seats allow for a very high capacity service. Ultimately, the services within the core are pretty much a glorified tube service.

I do understand, that people from Bedford to Brighton, may have an issue with these seats, but there are alternatives... East Midlands to St Pancress (Sorry about spelling) and then Southern from Victoria to Brighton.

Find me an alternative to a 700 for Huntingdon to London in the off-peak...

 

[tsr]

Yet 387s are not compatible with anything else in GTR's fleet. The MITRAC is different to that used in the 377s.

They can't run together in service. In the event of an incident, they are able to provide assistance to 377s or vice versa. However, it must be said that there is little, if any, need for the GX 387 fleet to be scheduled to work with the 377s. It's not like the 377 fleet needs donations from the 387 pool - in fact, there are still several GTR GX services worked by 377s. 387s are also based at Stewarts Lane, unlike 377s, which are based at the other major depots, so you'd have to co-ordinate coupling and uncoupling before and after any depot maintenance. It would be possible but just not worth it!

(There are also differences in relation to the interlock system and door operation, which some would say are equally important...!)

 

[43096]

I must admit this to me is a shame, the Class 172 is a very good product, solving most of the problems (primarily build quality issues) of the earlier Turbostars.

Really? The 172s are notorious for poor build quality - the disintegrating door buttons is just one example. They are one of the last examples of Bombardier’s poor build quality that was there for years, until the Thameslink loss saw them (finally) up their game.

 

[Failed Unit]

Find me an alternative to a 700 for Huntingdon to London in the off-peak...

Bedford- London was a bad example considering the EMT peaks are going.

Back to the topic for me I judge if a train is successful or not on failure rates. Neither are setting the world on fire yet. However I still feel it is too early to say if they are successful in that respect. The 350s / 450s didnt top the charts day 1. The 700s voltage change is something extra to go wrong that the 345s don’t have. Time will tell.

Interior is irrelevant. You could but the same interior in both trains (within reason) if desired.

I suspect in great northern land people will blame the trains because of the deterioration of the timetable. But the outcome would be the same if it was operated by 321s. Slower journeys are slower journeys whichever train runs the route. I will see when they arrive about comfort. I need to stand. If i can stand in comfort that is a good thing. When the 717s hit hopefully people can pass others when boarding / alighting in a better fashion than the 313s allow.

Be interesting how the 717s are received. Less seats but much better crush loading. With the complaints from Hadley wood were you could get a seat on a 313 but not on a 717.

Apologies if have the class number wrong for the new trains for the Moorgate route.

 

[whhistle]

Siemens' build quality is much better than Bombardier, but the look of their trains is awful compared with the sleek lines of the 345.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Siemens' build quality is much better than Bombardier, but the look of their trains is awful compared with the sleek lines of the 345.

That does of course mean the 345 will look dated in about 20 years' time, while the fairly nondescript Desiro will look fairly timeless. It's a bit like the way the 1980-90s EMUs like the 319 look a bit dated while the older PEP EMUs (or indeed, slamdoors aside, the Mk3 coach itself) still look modern outside because they are fairly nondescript.

 

[AM9]

That does of course mean the 345 will look dated in about 20 years' time, while the fairly nondescript Desiro will look fairly timeless. It's a bit like the way the 1980-90s EMUs like the 319 look a bit dated while the older PEP EMUs (or indeed, slamdoors aside, the Mk3 coach itself) still look modern outside because they are fairly nondescript.

I think the front of a 345 looks a bit like a pouting fish! The 700 front resembles the head of a dragonfly or praying mantis.

 

[whhistle]

Maybe we should try and give the 700 that name - the Praying Mantis!

 

[43096]

That does of course mean the 345 will look dated in about 20 years' time, while the fairly nondescript Desiro will look fairly timeless. It's a bit like the way the 1980-90s EMUs like the 319 look a bit dated while the older PEP EMUs (or indeed, slamdoors aside, the Mk3 coach itself) still look modern outside because they are fairly nondescript.

The 345 looks like someone at Bombardier decided it needed a front that was a bit more streamlined, so they just raked it back a bit.

A bit like the late 1990s when ADtranz appeared to do much the same with the DB 101s and created something that is not exactly great looking. In contrast, faced with the same challenge, Siemens came up with the classic Taurus design.

 

[D365]

A bit like the late 1990s when ADtranz appeared to do much the same with the DB 101s and created something that is not exactly great looking. In contrast, faced with the same challenge, Siemens came up with the classic Taurus design.

Personally I’m rather more sympathetic to the aesthetic of the 101.

 

[Driver@swt]

Siemens' build quality is much better than Bombardier, but the look of their trains is awful compared with the sleek lines of the 345.

That's just opinion....I personally think the Siemens unit look far better than the cheap looking Bombardier things !