Can "pick up only" restrictions affect ticket validity? How?

[All Line Rover]

I'm on a train from London to Bristol. The train stops at Reading. According to the timetable, this train is "pick up only" at Reading.

I hold a flexible ticket from London to Reading. I intend to, and do in fact, alight at Reading.

On what basis can a ticket inspector force me to excess my ticket - or purchase a new ticket - whist I am on the train between London and Reading and/or once I have alighted at Reading?

I hold a ticket from London to Reading. The train I travel on calls at Reading. I do, in fact, alight at Reading. I'm interested to understand the rail industry's legal basis - under contract and/or legislation - for denying the validity of my ticket. This being, as I understand it, the industry's current stance.

I am particularly interested to know how any suggested answers to the above question dovetail with condition 13.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, according to which:

Your Ticket... will be valid on any direct train service between the station(s) shown on your Ticket...

 

[plugwash]

Presumably the argument would be that the train was never advertised as providing a service from A -> B, only as providing service from A->C and B->C.

 

[PeterC]

In theory they could omit the stop without notice to passengers at Paddington and making other provision for Reading joiners.

Not likely in today's railway but I have heard, possibly apocryphal, stories of it being done in BR days.

 

[redreni]

In theory they could omit the stop without notice to passengers at Paddington and making other provision for Reading joiners.

Not likely in today's railway but I have heard, possibly apocryphal, stories of it being done in BR days.

Yeah, but the OP is asking about a case where that doesn't happen yet staff still contend the ticket isn't valid.

Bending over backwards to try and find support for the railway's position on this in the NRCoT, the only thing I can immediately find is in the information box (so explicitly not part of the contract, which is interesting) below condition 14.4, which says (in the context of split ticketing) that a ticket held to a station where the station Call is defined as for pick-up only is not valid.

But as I say, you'd have to ignore the fact the information box is not part of the contract and you'd have to assume it has a broader application outside of the split-ticket scenario to which it is said to apply.

If the TOCs are serious about this restriction in split-ticketing scenarios then they should probably have made it part of condition 14.4 (which would be clearer because the way it's written now, it could be taken to apply also to splits under condition 14.3, which would have the absurd consequence of making a combination of tickets valid if the train doesn't call at the split point at all, but invalid if it calls at the split point for pick-up only or set-down only).

There is, I admit, some logic behind the proposition that (subject to condition 14.3, tickets to a station are not valid on trains that are not scheduled to call there to set down passengers, and tickets from a station are not valid on trains that are not scheduled to pick up passengers there. But if that is the rule in all circumstances, and not just in split ticket scenarios, then in my humble opinion you'd need to write it into the contract. Maybe they have and I just haven't spotted it?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I'm on a train from London to Bristol. The train stops at Reading. According to the timetable, this train is "pick up only" at Reading.

I hold a flexible ticket from London to Reading. I intend to, and do in fact, alight at Reading.

On what basis can a ticket inspector force me to excess my ticket - or purchase a new ticket - whist I am on the train between London and Reading and/or once I have alighted at Reading?

Because you're not on a train to Reading - you're on a train which calls there to pick up.

Looking at the arguments above in favour of being able to use your London - Reading ticket on this train, I have to say that I wouldn't expect any of them to overturn the railway's fixed view that such a ticket isn't valid on such a train. So you'd have to go to law to get the point overturned. That would undoubtedly be hassle, and if you were to employ a lawyer it would be a cost - probably an irrecoverable cost if the railway were to withdraw before any case was heard. And in the event of the railway not withdrawing, the railway losing and the OP receiving costs, that still doesn't eliminate the hassle.

Realistically, I don't see any way to overturn the railway's fixed view unless someone decides to be something of a berserker and fight this point regardless of the risks to them.

 

[Harpo]

In theory they could omit the stop without notice to passengers at Paddington and making other provision for Reading joiners.

Not likely in today's railway but I have heard, possibly apocryphal, stories of it being done in BR days.

I know of an accidental BR era non-stop after traincrew heard the ‘will not today call at Reading’. That was when a Newbury commuter was extended to Paignton one Friday*.



* Note for younger readers. BR had trains that could practically go anywhere and give hugely flexible cover for seasonal peaks, special events etc..

 

[Benjwri]

In theory they could omit the stop without notice to passengers at Paddington and making other provision for Reading joiners.

Not likely in today's railway but I have heard, possibly apocryphal, stories of it being done in BR days.

I’ve been on a train where it happened! Far more recently than BR days, there was a spate where First would non stop Reading on the peak trains out of Paddington that picked up only, on the basis that they were full and standing and therefore no one could get on at Reading anyways.

Of course I’m sure it wouldn’t be admitted, but from what I hear they were trying to teach commuters who hopped on those trains and got off at Reading, meaning people for the south west couldn’t get on, a bit of a lesson.

 

[philthetube]

I am sure that has been mentioned on this forum before

 

[AlterEgo]

There is no disposal or penalty under the NRCoT for people who alight or board at restricted stops. It’s as simple as that and has been ever thus.

 

[MikeWh]

There is no disposal or penalty under the NRCoT for people who alight or board at restricted stops. It’s as simple as that and has been ever thus.

I regularly use Watford Junction station and when a southbound Avanti calls at platform 7 the screens all say not to board the service, and I believe announcements re-inforce the message. Is that sufficient to make it an offence to board?

 

[Krokodil]

I’ve been on a train where it happened! Far more recently than BR days, there was a spate where First would non stop Reading on the peak trains out of Paddington that picked up only, on the basis that they were full and standing and therefore no one could get on at Reading anyways.

Of course I’m sure it wouldn’t be admitted, but from what I hear they were trying to teach commuters who hopped on those trains and got off at Reading, meaning people for the south west couldn’t get on, a bit of a lesson.

There was a documented case some years back where a train did skip Reading and stop first at Swindon, on the basis that overcrowding was so great that no one would be able to board at Reading anyway, in theory there being no passengers alighting there to make room for those boarding. Multiple announcements were made to the effect of "this train will not call at Reading" which were ignored because the same announcements were made on the same train every Friday and the train always did stop. No question of "teaching them a lesson", it's a decision not taken lightly by control because a part-cancellation is expensive. They got taught a lesson, but the only objective Control had is the safe running of the service.

 

[AlterEgo]

I regularly use Watford Junction station and when a southbound Avanti calls at platform 7 the screens all say not to board the service, and I believe announcements re-inforce the message. Is that sufficient to make it an offence to board?

The Bylaws only make it an offence to refuse to obey a safety instruction or to “enter or remain on any part of the railway where there is a notice prohibiting access” where the intention is clearly to keep people away from no-go areas, not to prohibit one person from getting on a train with 500 other punters aboard. This was a well worn discussion at Virgin West Coast back in the day and it was accepted that passengers boarding with valid tickets at Watford Junction for London could have no penalty or disposal attached to them.