Can pax demand a part-journey penalty fare?

[NightatLaira]

Three hypothetical situations: (I've never done this / and I'm not planning on doing it):

A passenger boards a train without a ticket in a penalty fare area going to a destination that is not in one. E.g. Crofton Park to Hastings, and they get caught at Shortlands: can the passenger demand that they be given a penalty fare from their start station to the next station the train stops at rather than their ultimate destination station? (And then go and buy a ticket and carry on the journey)

A passenger boards a train at a station that is not in a penalty fare area but is going to a destination that takes them through one. E.g. Horsham to Wellingborough going thru London, they get caught at just before getting into East Croydon, can they demand the penalty fare is only to there, disembark and then carry on their journey with a proper ticket?

A passenger boards a train without a ticket in a non penalty fare area going to a destination that is in one but for whatever reason doesn't meet any ticket selling staff until they are in the fare zone. E.g Warwick Parkway to Wimbledon (getting caught at the gates at Marylebone). Could the person demand the non-penalty fare area part of the journey be separately charged as a normal legitimate ticket.

I'm just trying to get my head around this all....

 

[maniacmartin]

A passenger boards a train without a ticket in a penalty fare area going to a destination that is not in one. E.g. Crofton Park to Hastings, and they get caught at Shortlands: can the passenger demand that they be given a penalty fare from their start station to the next station the train stops at rather than their ultimate destination station? (And then go and buy a ticket and carry on the journey)

Yes, but then they have to make sure they purchase a ticket for the remainder of the journey before proceeding beyond the next station.

A passenger boards a train at a station that is not in a penalty fare area but is going to a destination that takes them through one. E.g. Horsham to Wellingborough going thru London, they get caught at just before getting into East Croydon, can they demand the penalty fare is only to there, disembark and then carry on their journey with a proper ticket?

A Penalty Fare cannot be charged at all in the example you gave, as the passenger joined the train at a station which is not a Penalty Fares station.

A passenger boards a train without a ticket in a non penalty fare area going to a destination that is in one but for whatever reason doesn't meet any ticket selling staff until they are in the fare zone. E.g Warwick Parkway to Wimbledon (getting caught at the gates at Marylebone). Could the person demand the non-penalty fare area part of the journey be separately charged as a normal legitimate ticket.

A Penalty Fare cannot be charged at all in the example you gave, as the passenger joined the train at a station which is not a Penalty Fares station.

You might find section 10.6 of our Fares & Ticketing Guide useful.

Note that the passenger could still be prosecuted under the Railway Byelaws and/or the Regulation of Railways Act as appropriate in all three of your examples if they passed ticket-purchasing opportunities at the start of their journey, regardless of whether a Penalty Fare can be levied.

 

[bb21]

A Penalty Fare, if applicable, should be issued to the next station the train stops at. Should the pax wish to remain on the same train, the full fare should be charged for the remainder of the journey. Alternatively the pax can get off the train, go to the ticket office and purchase a ticket for onward travel however doing so may well mean missing the current train.

 

[LexyBoy]

A Penalty Fare, if applicable, should be issued to the next station the train stops at. Should the pax wish to remain on the same train, the full fare should be charged for the remainder of the journey. Alternatively the pax can get off the train, go to the ticket office and purchase a ticket for onward travel however doing so may well mean missing the current train.

This being made quite clear on the posters which must be clearly displayed at all PF stations:

As I understand it, a PF can only be issued on trains within the same Penalty Fares Zone as the boarding station. For example, FGW operate PF schemes in the Thames Valley (including Didcot) as well as the Bristol Area (as far as Swindon). Someone boarding without a ticket at Didcot and travelling to Bristol would not be liable for a Penalty Fare because their origin was not within the Bristol PF zone (or put another way, the train is not a Penalty Fares Train going west from Didcot).

 

[tsr]

Horsham is a Penalty Fares Station, just for clarification.

A relevant and relatively nearby example would be Nutfield-Wellingborough.

 

[CyrusWuff]

As is Warwick Parkway, from where a Penalty Fare to London will set you back £122.00 Single or £190.00 Return.

The only exceptions to Chiltern's PF scheme are the Sudburys, Denham Golf Club, Little Kimble, Hatton, Lapworth, the Stratford branch and stations between Snow Hill and Kidderminster.

 

[maniacmartin]

I suppose I should have checked that the OP's assertions of which stations were and were not Penalty Fare stations was correct!

 

[island]

As is Warwick Parkway, from where a Penalty Fare to London will set you back £122.00 Single or £190.00 Return.

The only exceptions to Chiltern's PF scheme are the Sudburys, Denham Golf Club, Little Kimble, Hatton, Lapworth, the Stratford branch and stations between Snow Hill and Kidderminster.

There is no such thing as a return penalty fare.

 

[CyrusWuff]

There is no such thing as a return penalty fare.

Mea culpa. I was getting confused with the "only Anytime Singles and Returns are available on board" rule for some bizarre reason.

 

[RPI]

As is Warwick Parkway, from where a Penalty Fare to London will set you back £122.00 Single or £190.00 Return.

The only exceptions to Chiltern's PF scheme are the Sudburys, Denham Golf Club, Little Kimble, Hatton, Lapworth, the Stratford branch and stations between Snow Hill and Kidderminster.

Lapworth and Hatton are PF stations and have PERTIS machines

 

[CyrusWuff]

Lapworth and Hatton are PF stations and have PERTIS machines

I stand for correction, but I believe they're only part of the London Midland Penalty Fares scheme, not the Chiltern one.

 

[Mojo]

All of the stations listed by CyrusWuff are shown as being Penalty fare stations in the Chiltern Railways Penalty fare scheme, which is correct as of a few months ago.

 

[Clip]

All of the stations listed by CyrusWuff are shown as being Penalty fare stations in the Chiltern Railways Penalty fare scheme, which is correct as of a few months ago.

Indeed- they would be mad not have them as such too. All the London(including the Risborough branch) have a PERTIS too last time I used the line(s).

 

[Mojo]

Even before Little Kimble had its Pertis installed, it was still a Penalty fare station. I remember there being a sign there that stated something along the lines of needing to purchase a ticket at the first opportunity, or you will be liable for a Penalty fare.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Having now had sight of a copy of the current Chiltern PF leaflet, I stand corrected, though it still states that PFs do not apply from Claverdon, Bearley and Wilmcote.

 

[swt_passenger]

Even before Little Kimble had its Pertis installed, it was still a Penalty fare station.

As PERTIS machines are no longer a necessary feature of a Penalty Fare scheme, AIUI their presence or otherwise shouldn't really be used as evidence of a scheme...

 

[Mojo]

As PERTIS machines are no longer a necessary feature of a Penalty Fare scheme, AIUI their presence or otherwise shouldn't really be used as evidence of a scheme...

I didn't believe I was. There are posters at the station and it is in the PF scheme documentation. I was merely stating Little Kimble has no ticket issuing facilities whatsoever; not even a ticket vending machine, so this isn't exactly the same thing.