Can National Rail take over Heritage Railways?

[charlee]

Has there every been any examples of heritage and preserved railways being taken over by national rail?.

I mean if I was NR and I wanted to use a specific line for NR passenger services would it be easy for me to do such a thing? Could they have a compulsory purchase order to take over the line?

It's something that came to my head, seeing as there are some heritage railways which are connected to the mainlines of the national rail network.

 

[Wath Yard]

There isn't really such a thing as National Rail. Network Rail owns the infrastructure and doesn't run passenger services.

I'm sure if the Government really wanted to then heritage railways could be compulsory purchased, however there is a reason heritage railways are heritage railways. Heritage railways having connections to Network Rail isn't of any real relevance. My driveway is connected to the road but the council can't just take it over.

 

[RPM]

It is something that would be resolved as part of the Transport & Works Order I would have thought. Presumably mitigation measures would be required to either accommodate or relocate the heritage operation.

 

[Dolive22]

There isn't really such a thing as National Rail. Network Rail owns the infrastructure and doesn't run passenger services.

I'm sure if the Government really wanted to then heritage railways could be compulsory purchased, however there is a reason heritage railways are heritage railways. Heritage railways having connections to Network Rail isn't of any real relevance. My driveway is connected to the road but the council can't just take it over.

Except, as you say, if they compulsory purchase it (usually along with the house) because it is irreplaceable and you won't sell. NR (in this case Network Rail) wouldn't compulsory purchase it unless they had a very good reason, and they haven't found a good enough one yet.

I'm not sure of the powers. I know Local Government/Planning better than Transports and Works, and there a council compulsory purchases and can then pass on to a private sector developer if it's their scheme. T&W may work differently. In any case it's not that easy and certainly isn't quick. The only thing slower would be bringing it up to standard for 'real' railways (that run over 25 mph) and getting it approved.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And RPM knows much more than I do.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Cannot see this ever happening, unless a preserved line was a useful diversionary line, but most only have a single end mainline connection. Many preserved lines have looked into running passenger services with people movers but there is obviously no market and some lines (to Minehead) have run service freight trains in the past without need for compulsory purchase.

 

[swt_passenger]

Weren't a number of Heritage operations set up with the fundamental aim of reinstating a regular service for local commuters?

Look at what's going on around Swanage, as discussed in a recent thread. The local council seem to own the route, and apparently want a regular service connecting into SWT at Wareham. SWT then suddenly gauge clear a 158 down to Swanage.

If Dorset CC say so, presumably the Swanage Railway will go along with any decision?

 

[JohnCarlson]

Has there every been any examples of heritage and preserved railways being taken over by national rail?.

I mean if I was NR and I wanted to use a specific line for NR passenger services would it be easy for me to do such a thing? Could they have a compulsory purchase order to take over the line?

It's something that came to my head, seeing as there are some heritage railways which are connected to the mainlines of the national rail network.

I think the cost of buying out a preserved line would be quite high and only justifiable if there is a great need that cannot be met any other way.

I can not think of any examples where this might happen. Although there are several preserved lines where a commuter service might be desirable, I can't think of any where it would be any more than just desirable.

If a nuclear power station were to be built and it was essential that the waste be transported out by train the probably the preserved line would be happy to oblige by allowing such trains to run over their metals provided appropriate compensation were given. Most heritage lines want all the money they can get and of course such workings would attract photographers anyway.


There are some examples where heritage routes have sought out freight operators to run regular services over their lines as a revue raising exercise. However freight is unlikely to be so dense it would justify the exclusive use or purchase of the line.

However the world is always changing....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have seen the NYMR indicated on maps as being part of the National Rail network.

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi there,
An example of where something like this may have to be considered is the Lavender Line at Isfield. If (and it remains a big "if") the Uckfield - Lewes line was ever reopened then the Lavender line is in the way.

There are doubtless some legal methods to buy it out against the owner's wishes but I would imagine a far better deal would be reached by negotiation. This is much simpler and may well result in better outcomes for everyone.

Jason

 

[JoeGJ1984]

I have seen somewhere that it is hoped that the Cambrian line from Gobowen to Oswestry will be reopened and commuter services restored. However, it is being done by the Cambrian Heritage Railway - I don't know how this is planned to work, but generally heritage railways and 'serious' commuter railways are different beasts and don't mix very well - it is usually expensive to travel on heritage railways making an expensive commute.

 

[142094]

A good few heritage railways want to run services over their own lines and then connect onto the national network at strategic points (NYMR being the optimal example which happens now between Grosmont and Whitby). KWVR wanted to explore the possibility of a commuter service joining the mainline at Keighley. In both cases it has been the preserved line wanting to run over NR metals, so I've never heard of Network Rail wanting to do the opposite.

Saying that, if the railway boom continues, Network Rail may find that some preserved lines are needed in national interests, so no doubt there will be a way to return preserved lines to national ownership.

 

[wintonian]

Weren't a number of Heritage operations set up with the fundamental aim of reinstating a regular service for local commuters?

Look at what's going on around Swanage, as discussed in a recent thread. The local council seem to own the route, and apparently want a regular service connecting into SWT at Wareham. SWT then suddenly gauge clear a 158 down to Swanage.

If Dorset CC say so, presumably the Swanage Railway will go along with any decision?

I was going to mention Swanage, although I didn't know the council owned all the land (DCC rather than EDDC I presume?) I know they are very pro whats trying to be achieved.

Anyway this bit from Swanage's website here explains some of the logistics, there is more but I don't want to copy & paste too much.

Train operating company (TOC). Any train operator over Network Rail rails into Wareham will have to be an ORR Licensed Operator, hold a Safety Certificate and comply with Railway Group Standards. The Swanage Railway is not currently a licensed TOC and a decision will need to be taken in due course on whether we wish to form one and operate trains to Wareham. The financial risks will need to be weighed up against the potential risk of fare 'abstraction' (i.e. the siphoning from our premium heritage railway fares). Key to managing the financial risk will be the inclusion of a cap on penalty payments for causing delays on the mainline, known in the rail industry as Schedule 8 Track Access payments. During initial discussions, South West Trains have indicated their support in principle for this and there are examples elsewhere in the country of such caps being agreed, e.g. North Yorkshire Moors Railway trains operating between Grosmont and Whitby. The formation of our own TOC, which would allow us to be 'master in our own house', is our preferred option. Any trial amenity service is not likely to take place until summer 2014 at the earliest.

 

[twoag]

Isn't there some risk of this for the GWSR? I thought I read the route was mentioned in some of the long term documents of NR.

 

[Ploughman]

There is currently a Heritage Railway that has mainline connections and operates a regular freight service apparently with no problems.
The Ribble Steam Railway.
No suggestions about needing to be taken over by the NWR to continue this operation.
Why should it be any different anywhere else?

 

[theboywho]

ISTR that certain lines later part of the 'sustrans' network are in a position whereby they may be re-converted to railway use...

 

[wintonian]

ISTR that certain lines later part of the 'sustrans' network are in a position whereby they may be re-converted to railway use...

Sort of, my understanding is that a lot of LA's have chosen to 'protect' the trackbed in case of future use, and I believe that the big electric light bulb (powered by cycling hamsters) came on at Sustrans HQ and someone went to various local authorities with a proposal along the lines of "Instead of having all this land lying about unused would it help if it could be used to fulfil a key plank of your environmental strategy?"

The rest as they say is history.

At least I think it happened along those lines.

 

[jopsuk]

Weekday commuter operations over private (ie heritage) railways is potentially a good money spinner for the lines- and there are other examples of services that from private lines onto network rail routes- Heathrow Express for one, and I think technically HS1-classic lines services as well (as the line is owned by L&CR isn't it?).

There's little chance of running electric services though- especially as no steam railway is likely to want 25kV wires, and the only preserved line I've suggested for 3rd rail is Epping-Ongar.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

I had the idea that the SVR tried to run commuter services, but on winter weekdays, it's usually closed. IS there any prospect fo them using their DMU to run commuter services to connect with LM trains to Birmingham at Kidderminster (with lower prices than for riding on steam trains - after all, the leisure passengers will mostly go on weekends and ride steam trains so will pay more)? Or even for LM to run through services from Bridgnorth to Birmingham Snow Hill/Moor Street with modern class 172s? (Again with lower prices).

 

[wintonian]

Weekday commuter operations over private (ie heritage) railways is potentially a good money spinner for the lines- and there are other examples of services that from private lines onto network rail routes- Heathrow Express for one, and I think technically HS1-classic lines services as well (as the line is owned by L&CR isn't it?).

There's little chance of running electric services though- especially as no steam railway is likely to want 25kV wires, and the only preserved line I've suggested for 3rd rail is Epping-Ongar.

But when/ if they OHLE the SWMl would that not open the door to them also doing the Swanage branch at the same time, if the Swanage Railway Trust are serious about running a commuter service in the future? Of course a 158/9 would do fine and perhaps more in keeping with the 'heritage' aspect, but then SWT don't like using old stock (particularly heritage :-x) when they have got something newer at hand.

 

[SussexMan]

There is currently a Heritage Railway that has mainline connections and operates a regular freight service apparently with no problems.
The Ribble Steam Railway.
No suggestions about needing to be taken over by the NWR to continue this operation.
Why should it be any different anywhere else?

Well look at the example of the Lavender Line. If the Uckfield - Lewes railway was ever re-instated then something would need to give assuming the original alignment was kept. If the new section was single track then something might be possible, otherwise the two couldn't exist together.

Which then gave me the thought, if no railways had ever shut, would there be a Heritage Railway sector? Totally new railways would have had to have been constructed. Might that ever have happened?

 

[Wath Yard]

Weekday commuter operations over private (ie heritage) railways is potentially a good money spinner for the lines-

Some examples being? I can't think of any heritage railways that run into the centre of large cities. Most heritage railways are very dependent on volunteers and volunteers aren't going to turn out 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year at the crack of dawn to run commuter services without being paid.

I'm aware of the plans at Swanage but they have been planned for years and still haven't started so it's a bit early to declare it a success. I'm also aware of the suggestion, though I don't know whether it was more than just a suggestion, of running commuter services on the East Lancs - however I really can't see anybody using it to get to Manchester.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

Some examples being? I can't think of any heritage railways that run into the centre of large cities

That's why I mentioned the SVR - the area is covers are I think in Birmingham's 'commuter belt' so I think there may be a market for direct commuter services to Birmingham City Centre via Kidderminster, and this may prove a money spinner.

 

[Wath Yard]

The SVR has been around for over 40 years, with the line to Kidderminster being open nearly 30. If it was a money spinner do you not think they may have tried it by now?

 

[Kali]

Which then gave me the thought, if no railways had ever shut, would there be a Heritage Railway sector? Totally new railways would have had to have been constructed. Might that ever have happened?

We had too many railways, so it's pretty unlikely *every* railway would remain; and there are other areas where the world has changed - like containerization - which have made things like large yards redundant, so there would be some closure of railway architecture which could be reused.

Really though a sensible rationalisation rather than the butchery we had would still have resulted in closures. Maybe not places people would want to go though...

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Some examples being? I can't think of any heritage railways that run into the centre of large cities. Most heritage railways are very dependent on volunteers and volunteers aren't going to turn out 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year at the crack of dawn to run commuter services without being paid.

.

The Great Central has the potential to offer a Leicester - Nottingham service but not without a great deal of expenditure and even then would face stiff competition from existing rail and bus services. And as you rightly say there are plenty of people willing to play trains at the weekends but there would be very few who would bother with a week in week out 4 a.m. start on freezing Winter mornings for the love of the railway.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Running freight services over a heritage railway is no different to running to private docks or sidings.
The wagons are pulled, each side of their boundaries, by their respective locomotives.
A passenger service is a different matter.
A lot of heritage railways' track beds are owned by a local authority, who lease them to a Society.
A practical way could be for a professional organisation (Eg NR) to maintain / replace the 'mainline' track. An upgrade of infrastructure would enable commuter trains to run as well as steam trains.
Plus points
Probably no commuter trains on a Sunday - the heritage group would have a day to themselves!
The heritage group could concentrate their resources on their Steam Engines and rolling stock. They may then not be restricted to 25mph!
Possible through Sunday specials to a destination on the National network?
(in conjunction with a rail tour company etc)

 

[142094]

You could look at the freight side of things too - Weardale Railway currently has a contract to load coal at Woolsington which then goes onto the mainline at Bishop Auckland.

 

[ntg]

But when/ if they OHLE the SWMl would that not open the door to them also doing the Swanage branch at the same time, if the Swanage Railway Trust are serious about running a commuter service in the future? Of course a 158/9 would do fine and perhaps more in keeping with the 'heritage' aspect, but then SWT don't like using old stock (particularly heritage :-x) when they have got something newer at hand.

I was wondering about Swanage myself. If they ever want to make Swanage a viable commute to Bournemouth then speed will also be a necessary obstacle to overcome. As it is Swanage to Norden in 24 minutes isn't really fast enough for 6 miles.

I guess it depends on how heritage they really want to be...

 

[wintonian]

I was wondering about Swanage myself. If they ever want to make Swanage a viable commute to Bournemouth then speed will also be a necessary obstacle to overcome. As it is Swanage to Norden in 24 minutes isn't really fast enough for 6 miles.

I guess it depends on how heritage they really want to be...

Well they have identified a need to full barrier the Norden crossing due to the otherwise necessary speed penalty.

 

[3141]

Back in about 1998 Chiltern contemplated running weekday services along the Chinnor and Princess Risborough railway, and reopening the closed line beyond Chinnor to a point near Aston Rowant. They would have built a large car park near junction 6 of the M40, and thereby have provided the means for commuters from the south and east of Oxford to transfer to the train. They ran a class 165 to Chinnor to demonstrate the possibilities. If this had happened it was proposed to be with the co-operation of the C&PRR, but it was opposed by people who feared it might lead to large-scale residential development near Aston Rowant. Chiltern changed their proposals to the one involving the re-opening of the line through Thame, and later to the scheme involving the chord at Bicester, which now has approval to go ahead.

 

[Wyvern]

Aren't many heritage lines simply on a long term lease from Network Rail?

In which case there might be provisions in the lease.

However the infrastructure would probably be to Light Railway Order standards