Can Kings Cross be used for Thameslink services during disruption through the core?

[AM9]

It's very rare for it to be used for anything other than that I think - I suppose by the time it is considered the issue is usually close to fixed.

Either way these completely avoidable incidents absolutely destroy the service and given some branches are only 2tph it causes major problems for passengers. GTR often don't do an amazing job of diverting in to KGX and it can take a long time to get it set up when they do.

Ccould probably minimise the impact by terminating at Kings Cross and for MML services use low level platform A or B*? The other line, if safe to operate with ongoing recovery operations in hand, could be used for short flights of through trains, (say 2xBML and one Sutton loop). It would require enhanced platform staffing to herd passengers onto the correct through trains, but runnning with close headways, that might allow up to two complete three-train flights per hour each way (assuming a transit time of 10 minutes in the core.
Before anybody jumps on this and says totally impossible, it is only a suggestion within a question aimed at those who might know.

*In normal weekday timetable working, I guess that it would be too difficult to make space on the MML platforms?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Ccould probably minimise the impact by terminating at Kings Cross and for MML services use low level platform A or B*? The other line, if safe to operate with ongoing recovery operations in hand, could be used for short flights of through trains, (say 2xBML and one Sutton loop). It would require enhanced platform staffing to herd passengers onto the correct through trains, but runnning with close headways, that might allow up to two complete three-train flights per hour each way (assuming a transit time of 10 minutes in the core.
Before anybody jumps on this and says totally impossible, it is only a suggestion within a question aimed at those who might know.

*In normal weekday timetable working, I guess that it would be too difficult to make space on the MML platforms?

Is there the room at Kings Cross to bung a load of extra trains in? What about the drivers - where do they go if you divert a train?
Similar at St Pancras - a Brighton driver isn't going to terminate at St Pancras and take their train back north

 

[AM9]

Is there the room at Kings Cross to bung a load of extra trains in? What about the drivers - where do they go if you divert a train?
Similar at St Pancras - a Brighton driver isn't going to terminate at St Pancras and take their train back north

I doubt whether a full service would stand a chance, - what I was suggesting was slightly better than what happens now. The crowd swallowing capability of the 700s could probably manage to carry a significant proportion of normal passenger volumes (the rest using other routes to bypass the core blockage). IT might require some aggregating of trainloads at station s like Kentish Town, Finsbury Park, - I don't know, especially the GN side.
A Brighton driver could be put on one of the through trains and then the return journey would be a london Bridge turnback service. A similar pattern could apply noorth of the core where Bedford drivers handle the short runs there. I envisage this as a contingency in the case of an emergency, not a long-standing service pattern.

 

[Bikeman78]

Is there the room at Kings Cross to bung a load of extra trains in? What about the drivers - where do they go if you divert a train?
Similar at St Pancras - a Brighton driver isn't going to terminate at St Pancras and take their train back north

They have to go somewhere. Peterborough to Horsham has 12 units. Arlesey, Biggleswade, Sandy, St Neots and Huntingdon are only served by Thameslink, as are some stations south of the Thames. Ideally you'd keep Peterborough drivers to the north and Horsham drivers to the south but there will always be some trapped the wrong side when the incident happens.

 

[Surreytraveller]

They have to go somewhere. Peterborough to Horsham has 12 units. Arlesey, Biggleswade, Sandy, St Neots and Huntingdon are only served by Thameslink, as are some stations south of the Thames. Ideally you'd keep Peterborough drivers to the north and Horsham drivers to the south but there will always be some trapped the wrong side when the incident happens.

South of the Thames is easy, Southern just make extra stops. If 12 units, then in theory 6 will north of the core and six south. Any drivers the wrong side will just have to sit there waiting for the blockage to clear unless they're within spitting distance of a berthing location. Trains just sitting there will then block all the others unless they're at a location where they can be worked around

 

[Deepgreen]

AIUI they can’t hit the tunnel portal because an earthed overhead wire continues further south of Drayton Park.

Presumably it ends somewhere though?

That can be taken as fact!

 

[Stephen42]

AIUI they can’t hit the tunnel portal because an earthed overhead wire continues further south of Drayton Park.

Presumably it ends somewhere though?

The signal at Drayton Park doesn't clear until the third rail detects current or at least enough time for the train to stop. That's a lot more practical for 14 trains per hour compared to 24 per hour.

Some Thameslink depots probably have minimal or no regularly booked empty stock workings through the core. Most drivers would have experience of empty runs from Moorgate requiring a stop at Drayton Park for changeover so even without the signal protection it's less likely a driver would forget at Drayton Park if running empty unplanned.

 

[185143]

Always the same with the rail industry. Now even the pantographs are on strike ...

Solidarity with the pantographs!

 

[Bikeman78]

South of the Thames is easy, Southern just make extra stops. If 12 units, then in theory 6 will north of the core and six south. Any drivers the wrong side will just have to sit there waiting for the blockage to clear unless they're within spitting distance of a berthing location. Trains just sitting there will then block all the others unless they're at a location where they can be worked around

I don't know if Peterborough drivers sign London Bridge terminus or Horsham drivers sign King's Cross. If they do then the logical thing to do is send the trains to the termini and taxi the crew across London to work a train back to their booking on point. I doubt a Horsham driver would see the funny side of sitting at Finsbury Park for four hours. Apart from anything else, they would need a break before carrying to to Horsham when the core eventually opens.

 

[Minstral25]

South of the Thames is easy, Southern just make extra stops. If 12 units, then in theory 6 will north of the core and six south. Any drivers the wrong side will just have to sit there waiting for the blockage to clear unless they're within spitting distance of a berthing location. Trains just sitting there will then block all the others unless they're at a location where they can be worked around

Southern only call at Earlswood and Salfords at peak (and then mostly only in one direction) and have no services passing through the platforms at these stations (as all Southern trains are on the main line). So when Thameslink falls down they don't get served.

 

[Magdalia]

Cambridge and Peterborough drivers can and do drive in and out of Kings Cross.

But platform capacity is a significant constraint, especially as the Cambridge-Brighton and Peterborough-Horsham trains are 12 cars so can't use platforms 9 and 10.

 

[Fincra5]

Ccould probably minimise the impact by terminating at Kings Cross and for MML services use low level platform A or B*? The other line, if safe to operate with ongoing recovery operations in hand, could be used for short flights of through trains, (say 2xBML and one Sutton loop). It would require enhanced platform staffing to herd passengers onto the correct through trains, but runnning with close headways, that might allow up to two complete three-train flights per hour each way (assuming a transit time of 10 minutes in the core.
Before anybody jumps on this and says totally impossible, it is only a suggestion within a question aimed at those who might know.

*In normal weekday timetable working, I guess that it would be too difficult to make space on the MML platforms?

They can do..

Depends which TL driver is onboard. Not all sign Kings Cross. But the main issues come from recovery and diagrams!

Kings Cross also gets full pretty quickly.

 

[PGAT]

Southern only call at Earlswood and Salfords at peak (and then mostly only in one direction) and have no services passing through the platforms at these stations (as all Southern trains are on the main line). So when Thameslink falls down they don't get served.

Those stations in particular don’t get served but Ifield, Faygate and Littlehaven get served when issues arise

 

[Minstral25]

Those stations in particular don’t get served but Ifield, Faygate and Littlehaven get served when issues arise

Lucky for them that Arun Valley trains can call - no such luck for Earlswood and Salfords. They are continuing problem that has been happening for 6 years now, with no action by GTR. Passengers are giving up and those still using trains often drive to Redhill which in turn means car parking is over-stretched at Redhill.

Really need GTR to sort out a solution but they won't try. (They have been asked to many times)

 

[PGAT]

Lucky for them that Arun Valley trains can call - no such luck for Earlswood and Salfords. They are continuing problem that has been happening for 6 years now, with no action by GTR. Passengers are giving up and those still using trains often drive to Redhill which in turn means car parking is over-stretched at Redhill.

Really need GTR to sort out a solution but they won't try. (They have been asked to many times)

Maybe you could try and get GWR to stop in times of disruption?

 

[Minstral25]

Maybe you could try and get GWR to stop in times of disruption?

Not really - 4-6 minute turn rounds at Gatwick and Redhill don't allow any time for extra calls.

 

[Farigiraf]

When the Canal Tunnels are closed for maintenance, There are considerably more Thameslinks into Kings Cross from Cambridge

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[D365]

Could probably minimise the impact by terminating at Kings Cross and for MML services use low level platform A or B?

Would that be possible with the Class 222s?

 

[AM9]

Would that be possible with the Class 222s?

I was referring to TL services that serve the MML, not EMR trains.

 

[Failed Unit]

They can do..

Depends which TL driver is onboard. Not all sign Kings Cross. But the main issues come from recovery and diagrams!

Kings Cross also gets full pretty quickly.

It does, and they still do, a number of Thameslink services were diverted to Kings Cross yesterday because of the issues in the South. Not sure if they start at Finsbury Park like when the Northern City line is disrupted to keep platform occupancy to the minimum. But they definitely divert into Kings Cross In disruptions.