Can I use Virgin Trains between Watford Junction and London Euston?

[Starmill]

For a point to point outboundary Travelcard, yes.

How can a Travelcard be a point to point product? I'm afraid none of this post really makes any sense to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How can a Travelcard be a point to point product? I'm afraid none of this post really makes any sense to me.

From most South East stations (and some further away than that) there is an outboundary One Day Travelcard, typically an Anytime and an Off Peak variety (also some Super Off Peaks).

The ticket, issued as a single piece, is effectively the combination of the appropriate "point to point" return ticket (one journey in each direction) to the boundary of zone 6, then the Travelcard part kicks in. Unlimited travel is allowed within the Zones on any routes you like, but until you reach them it is treated as a traditional return ticket of whatever type with the Routeing Guide applicable. (Though it's sometimes not clear to precisely where!)

Here's one example:
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=BLY&dest=BFR&grpd=0035&tkt=ADT

 

[tiptoptaff]

As much as I love reading the waffle in this thread, isn't the answer to the OP's question still no, as VT don't convey passengers between Euston and Watford Jcn...?

 

[yorkie]

Two very important points:
(1) Constantly harping on about it does not make you correct; (Applies to you and to us. We can let everyone else decide for themselves.)

Agreed; I've supplied the evidence that I am correct, so I don't need to do any more than that really.

...
I appreciate your concern that previously reasonable permitted routes from DC line stations may have been lost ...

If they had been lost, I would expect the loss to be fully documented, printed on the ticket, and for booking engine suppliers to have been given a new methodology for calculating the permitted routes.

.... Just because the ticket is printed in the format of an ordinary outboundary Travelcard does not change the underlying product being sold. Clearly you have no intention of coming round to the understanding of Bletchleyite's and mine, and I suspect 99% of the general population, and vice versa, so I see little point of this dragging on. I remain of the view that it is irresponsible advising people a Zones 1-9 Travelcard is valid via Watford Junction (if held on paper).

I'm out.

The underlying product is an outboundary Travelcard. It has had additional validity added for Zones 7-9. Yes it's a "hack" but the intention was to add additional validity not less validity, and the implementation reflects that.

I hardly think that 99% of the general population would agree that a ticket is not valid in accordance with the terms under which it is sold by all booking engines.

 

[yorkie]

As much as I love reading the waffle in this thread, isn't the answer to the OP's question still no, as VT don't convey passengers between Euston and Watford Jcn...?

The answer to the question was provided in post #7

 

[Starmill]

From most South East stations (and some further away than that) there is an outboundary One Day Travelcard, typically an Anytime and an Off Peak variety (also some Super Off Peaks).

The ticket, issued as a single piece, is effectively the combination of the appropriate "point to point" return ticket (one journey in each direction) to the boundary of zone 6, then the Travelcard part kicks in. Unlimited travel is allowed within the Zones on any routes you like, but until you reach them it is treated as a traditional return ticket of whatever type with the Routeing Guide applicable. (Though it's sometimes not clear to precisely where!)

Here's one example:
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=BLY&dest=BFR&grpd=0035&tkt=ADT

They are fundamentally different to point to point fares though, that's the whole point. For example you can use the outward portion of a Reading Off Peak Day Travelcard to travel from Reading to West Drayton (of course there is no need to stop there) and the return from Feltham to Reading, again if there were a train that didn't stop that would be fine.

 

[yorkie]

From most South East stations (and some further away than that) there is an outboundary One Day Travelcard, typically an Anytime and an Off Peak variety (also some Super Off Peaks).

The ticket, issued as a single piece, is effectively the combination of the appropriate "point to point" return ticket (one journey in each direction) to the boundary of zone 6, then the Travelcard part kicks in. Unlimited travel is allowed within the Zones on any routes you like, but until you reach them it is treated as a traditional return ticket of whatever type with the Routeing Guide applicable. (Though it's sometimes not clear to precisely where!)

Here's one example:
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=BLY&dest=BFR&grpd=0035&tkt=ADT

Yes; we know that. Watford High Street to London Zones 1-6 AAA 7-9 is an example of an outboundary Travelcard. It just happens to have additional validity in Zones 7-9.

 

[Starmill]

Yes; we know that. Watford High Street to London Zones 1-6 AAA 7-9 is an example of an outboundary Travelcard. It just happens to have additional validity in Zones 7-9.

Exactly. I'm really confused as to how anyone takes a different interpretation of this concept?

I've never seen anyone else suggest that this isn't the case!

 

[bb21]

The underlying product is an outboundary Travelcard.

You do realise that all outboundary Travelcards are not equal, don't you? There is no compulsion they must work in exactly the same way, and Zones 7-9 very definitely have different rules. Condition 13.3 of the NRCoT makes it very clear how zonal products work.

As you say, all evidence and underlying logic has been explained by both sides. I am happy to just allow others to make their own mind up.

Exactly. I'm really confused as to how anyone takes a different interpretation of this concept?

Because this is a discussion forum, and unfortunately on this occasion some people disagree in their interpretation of the rules going by the evidence available.

 

[yorkie]

You can by all means disagree with the actual rules, and disagree with the implementation by all booking engines. But they aren't wrong!

 

[tiptoptaff]

The answer to the question was provided in post #7

That was regarding the ticket itself, not whether the OP can be carried on VT - which they cannot

 

[yorkie]

This was mentioned or confirmed in posts #2, #3, #5 and #7.

 

[Mag_seven]

That was regarding the ticket itself, not whether the OP can be carried on VT - which they cannot

That was the top bit of post 7 - in the bottom bit @yorkie replies to @Bletchleyite thus:

2. No passengers are carried from Euston to Watford Junction or vice versa on VT regardless of what ticket they have.

Is the correct answer

Fairly conclusive to me.

 

[Starmill]

Because this is a discussion forum, and unfortunately on this occasion some people disagree in their interpretation of the rules going by the evidence available.

That's not a problem, or a cause for concern, although it is not a viewpoint I have ever come across before that the AAA removes validity rather than adds it, or indeed that there are special rules for 1-9 Travelcards that don't exist for 1-6 ones and I don't really see even now how the available evidence suggets that.

The thing that is causing concern is that because you are saying that this is an issue in speccing Online Journey Planners or even worse suggesting that it's an error. The implication of that is that some or all OJPs are breaking their licence conditions because your view isn't in agreement with theirs. That would be a serious state of affairs if it were true. Even Tribute TIS offers this by default, so if you're saying that they are wrong again that's a cause for concern.

You know as well as practically everyone on this forum that the product on sale is... not a Zones 1-6 Travelcard with a Watford High Street - Boundary Zone 6 return tagged on at the end.

If bought online, this is exactly what the product is, with additional Zone 7-9 validity.
This means, among other things, that only one return journey via Watford Junction would be permitted.

If bought from a London Underground ticket machine, at a price 10p lower, things may be different.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

And in answer to the OP's question, yes you could use a Watford Junction to London Euston ticket on Virgin Trains if it was part of a split ticket arrangement; if in conjunction with another regular ticket then the train would have to stop at Watford Junction; if in conjunction with a season ticket then the train would not have to stop at Watford Junction. In a funny kind of way, the latter is a little less controversial, because there is always the disagreement over whether a train that is set-down/pickup only can be counted as "calling at" that station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If bought online, this is exactly what the product is, with additional Zone 7-9 validity.
This means, among other things, that only one return journey via Watford Junction would be permitted.

If bought from a London Underground ticket machine, at a price 10p lower, things may be different.

I'm actually now coming round to this interpretation given how it is issued (because AAA typically doesn't remove validity, being "Also Available At"). Though why it is issued like that utterly confounds me, and it is a massive anomaly as the fare from WFJ is much higher.

If LU still issue it as 123456ABCD (or 123456789 or anything vaguely similar, rather than as a "point to point" outboundary 1-6 Travelcard from Watford High St which happens also to have 7-9 validity), then *that* unquestionably is *not* valid via WFJ.

 

[yorkie]

And in answer to the OP's question, yes you could use a Watford Junction to London Euston ticket on Virgin Trains if it was part of a split ticket arrangement; if in conjunction with another regular ticket then the train would have to stop at Watford Junction; if in conjunction with a season ticket then the train would not have to stop at Watford Junction. In a funny kind of way, the latter is a little less controversial, because there is always the disagreement over whether a train that is set-down/pickup only can be counted as "calling at" that station.

Heading South, a ticket issued specifically from Watford Junction to London Zones 1-6 in conjunction with a Birmingham (or wherever) to Watford Juncton ticket would be difficult to deny as being valid; the calling points for the service would include Watford Junction and a straight split would be strong evidence of compliance with NRCoT Condition 14.

I am not so sure I would want to try the same argument heading North out of Euston though.

I'm actually now coming round to this interpretation given how it is issued (because AAA typically doesn't remove validity, being "Also Available At"). Though why it is issued like that utterly confounds me, and it is a massive anomaly as the fare from WFJ is much higher.

It is the only way of issuing it.

But I would argue that the anomaly is that the fare from Watford Junction is clearly far too high, but that's a whole debate in itself. Watford Jn is an island of high fares; look at fares to Hatch End from both Watford North and Watford High St, both valid via WFJ, and compare those fares to the fare from WFJ to Hatch End. Anomalies are all over the place, not just at WFJ. It's just the way it is. It doesn't affect the rules. We could discuss anomalies for ages; it is a whole topic for discussion at the next London meal you can make, I look forward to it!

I don't think there is anything more to be debated in this thread though.

 

[causton]

I'm actually now coming round to this interpretation given how it is issued (because AAA typically doesn't remove validity, being "Also Available At"). Though why it is issued like that utterly confounds me, and it is a massive anomaly as the fare from WFJ is much higher.

If LU still issue it as 123456ABCD (or 123456789 or anything vaguely similar, rather than as a "point to point" outboundary 1-6 Travelcard from Watford High St which happens also to have 7-9 validity), then *that* unquestionably is *not* valid via WFJ.

Pink LU tickets will indeed say 123456789 and below they will say "Watford Junction" if it is included. They are almost certainly not valid.

I will not comment anymore on the matter, as I have quite a bias!

 

[transmanche]

Can I just clarify a point?

If you go to Watford High Street station and ask for a Z1-9 Travelcard, you'll actually get issued a Watford High Street to Zones 1-6 AAA 7-9 Travelcard because the National Rail ticketing system is unable to issue a Z1-9 Travelcard. But if you go to Watford LU station (or a Ticket Stop) and ask for a Z1-9 Travelcard that's exactly what you'll get.

So the Watford High Street to Zones 1-6 AAA 7-9 Travelcard is just a quick and dirty hack for a limitation in the ticketing system?

 

[yorkie]

The "AAA 7-9" is a bit of a hack, yes.

You can't redefine a Zones 1-6 Travelcard. It is a clearly defined product. But you can offer additional validity for extra zones that are outwith Zones 1-6.

The LU ticket issued at Watford is a different product to the Watford High Street ticket. Both are different again to a Brentwood to Zones 1-6 AAA 7-9 Travelcard (which is valid via Shenfield)

 

[bb21]

So the Watford High Street to Zones 1-6 AAA 7-9 Travelcard is just a quick and dirty hack for a limitation in the ticketing system?

Yes..

 

[Bletchleyite]

The "AAA 7-9" is a bit of a hack, yes.

You can't redefine a Zones 1-6 Travelcard. It is a clearly defined product. But you can offer additional validity for extra zones that are outwith Zones 1-6.

The LU ticket issued at Watford is a different product to the Watford High Street ticket.

And it seems that that quick and dirty hack also causes the ticket, unintentionally, to offer additional validity.

 

[yorkie]

And it seems that that quick and dirty hack also causes the ticket, unintentionally, to offer additional validity.

This does not make sense. I think you may be confused?

The "hack" is to make the ticket also available at Zones 7-9.

By definition, the intention of the "hack" is to offer additional validity in Zones 7-9!

What it does not do, is reduce the long-standing validity of the ticket in any way.

 

[causton]

This does not make sense. I think you may be confused?

The "hack" is to make the ticket also available at Zones 7-9.

By definition, the intention of the "hack" is to offer additional validity in Zones 7-9!

I think you know what is meant.

If it was possible to issue a Watford High Street to London Zones 1-9 ticket, there would be no issues.
The only reason this whole debate has come about is because nobody has thought to add London Zones 1-9 as a destination and therefore the route 00923 AAA Zones 7-9 has to exist.

The intention of the ticket is almost certainly to offer validity in Zones 1-9 only, no more, no less.

 

[bb21]

I think you know what is meant.

Of course he does. He was the one who introduced and explained this hack to me many years back when it was first put into use upon the scrapping of Zones A-D and the harmonisation of DC line stations into 7-9.

 

[yorkie]

I think you know what is meant.

If it was possible to issue a Watford High Street to London Zones 1-9 ticket, there would be no issues.
The only reason this whole debate has come about is because nobody has thought to add London Zones 1-9 as a destination and therefore the route 00923 AAA Zones 7-9 has to exist.

The intention of the ticket is almost certainly to offer validity in Zones 1-9 only, no more, no less.

But the ticket has been valid via Watford Junction - in the same way that any ticket from Watford High Street to Bushey or beyond is valid via Watford Junction - for a very long time, and I am not at all convinced that the additional validity was offered with the intention to reduce validity.

If that was the intention, why did they not actually implement it?

The idea that higher fares can be charged from Watford Junction than any of the surrounding stations is a bit of a farce; they cannot stop people using tickets from, say, Watford North to get to places like Wembley at a fraction of the cost of a ticket from Watford Junction.

Of course he does. He was the one who introduced and explained this hack to me many years back when it was first put into use upon the scrapping of Zones A-D and the harmonisation of DC line stations into 7-9.

I can't remember that conversation, but I won't deny it

 

[causton]

But the ticket has been valid via Watford Junction - in the same way that any ticket from Watford High Street to Bushey or beyond is valid via Watford Junction - for a very long time, and I am not at all convinced that the additional validity was offered with the intention to reduce validity.

If that was the intention, why did they not actually implement it?

The idea that higher fares can be charged from Watford Junction than any of the surrounding stations is a bit of a farce; they cannot stop people using tickets from, say, Watford North to get to places like Wembley at a fraction of the cost of a ticket from Watford Junction.

It depends who decided to create the "hack" and why they did it - considering LO almost officially said a St Albans Abbey - Zones 1-6 travelcard was not valid and penalty fared people between Bushey and Carpenders Park for being 'out of zone' I am not sure they fully understand the consequences of the zonal system

I could dig deeper and find out but it will probably result in it disappearing.

Watford North vs Watford Junction is a separate issue - the fares from WFN are what we would like the fares from WFJ to be (or even lower for a couple!) but because we are in the Oyster area we must punish all paper ticket users, or so TfL say...

 

[yorkie]

It depends who decided to create the "hack" and why they did it - considering LO almost officially said a St Albans Abbey - Zones 1-6 travelcard was not valid and penalty fared people between Bushey and Carpenders Park for being 'out of zone' I am not sure they fully understand the consequences of the zonal system

Yes it is true that some operators employ authorised collectors who are not knowledgeable and charge Penalty Fares to passengers who hold valid tickets, which is completely unacceptable.

I could dig deeper and find out but it will probably result in it disappearing.

I don't think there is any need (nor would we ever get a conclusive answer about intentions of the people involved at the relevant organisations anyway; I suspect the answer is that they did not intend to reduce validity because they had no idea what the validity of the product even was!)

It was a rhetorical question really.

Watford North vs Watford Junction is a separate issue - the fares from WFN are what we would like the fares from WFJ to be (or even lower for a couple!) but because we are in the Oyster area we must punish all paper ticket users, or so TfL say...

The issue is that there is an intention to charge a huge premium to users of Watford Junction for southbound travel compared to other National Rail served stations in Watford, even when those fares are valid via WFJ. However this policy does not in any way impact on the validity of fares from nearby stations.

 

[bnm]

Of course he does. He was the one who introduced and explained this hack to me many years back when it was first put into use upon the scrapping of Zones A-D and the harmonisation of DC line stations into 7-9.

What's this? Fifth post since you said, "I'm out", sixth since saying you weren't discussing further.

Yorkie's evidence is compelling. Yours isn't.

 

[bb21]

You do realise that discussions develop, right? If you prefer, shall I take those words back just so you are happy?

I'm not sure why I should trust your judgement on what is and is not compelling over my own on your say so.

Thanks for your adjudication though. It has helped me a great deal.