Can I help my brother...?

[amyp87]

Hi,

I am hoping this is the right place to ask for some advice.

My brother received a fine back in July for £20 - he said he would dispute this but hasn't and has just told me that it has now got to the point where they are demanding about £130! He is aware that this is his fault for just ignoring rather than dealing with it.

He had a hospital appointment and was running late - again, his fault. He arrived at station and queued for a ticket, but the train arrived. People were still queueing, but buying tickets for other occasions. He saw that they were ushering people on to the train so he went ahead.

When the ticket conductor came to check tickets, my brother explained and asked if he could buy a ticket. Conductor said yes and said he would go to collect the machine.

Two minutes later, a lady arrived with a camera on her chest and said that he was being fined £20. He refused to pay this as he was angry at having asked to buy a ticket and then being fined - he was actively trying to buy the ticket, rather than hiding or avoiding.

Please can you offer some advice on whether this would be worth trying to appeal?

Thank you

Amy

 

[gray1404]

I think the best advise at this time would be to pay up ASAP before it ends up in court. It does seem unfair that the guard agrees too sell a ticket then a Ticket Inspector comes along in the couple of minutes that follow before the ticket is sold. But I cannot help but wonder if the guard, upon returning, could have stopped the PF being issued.

Nevertheless, any appeal for the PF would need to have been made shortly after issue of the £20 PF notice. In short, pay up what they are offering now to stop this going to court. Your brother may then with to complain to customer services of the train company as a SEPARATE matter however.

Which train company is it for?

 

[mikeg]

Unfortunately the deadline for appeals has passed and in any case it sounds like any appeal sent was rejected.

A few points here, it is not a fine, however much it may feel like one. The original £20 was a Penalty Fare charged in accordance with the penalty fares regulations, which is simply a fare charged at a higher than normal rate. Although the law usually does not allow such penalties, penalty fares are explicitly allowed under s130 of the Railways Act 1993 and the penalty fare rules 2002, so are legally valid.

The £130 is an out of court settlement offer, keep in mind that they may prosecute for the travel without a valid ticket or even decide that it was intended that the fare be avoided, if the settlement remains unpaid. I therefore suggest paying it pronto.

A further point is that appeal does not stop the clock on payment and in case of delay of the decision, my advice is usually to pay in protest and then claim the money back upon successful appeal. However, provided that there was correct penalty fare signage and as you say there were ticketing facilities, I can't really see any grounds for appeal. You could argue that your brother travelled with authority for an authorised person (I'm presuming the guard) but that would be difficult to show.

In any case it is an offence to board a train without a ticket at a station where ticketing facilities are present. Being late as you say is his fault, not the railways and this is the sort of thing you risk travelling without a valid ticket. Be thankful he was offered a penalty fare by the way, which is part of an official scheme, some operators would go straight for out of court settlement or even prosecution.

Out of interest, which railway company is this and what was the origin station?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum.

It seems that your brother joined a train at a station where ticketing facilities were available. This is illegal and so issuing a Penalty Fare is appropriate, however unfair it might seem. An appeal is highly likely to be unsuccessful.

The best thing is to pay what is being demanded as soon as possible to stop the matter escalating.

 

[najaB]

An appeal is highly likely to be unsuccessful.

It also appears to be *way* past the point where an appeal would even be allowed.

Had he promptly appealed the penalty fare then the fact that he was 'waved on board' might have been grounds for a successful appeal, but as others have noted there is little at this stage on which to hang hopes of finding a way to avoid shelling out - be it the £130 requested currently or a larger amount to the Court.

 

[amyp87]

Thank you for all of your advice - I will let him know that his best option is to pay.

 

[gray1404]

And remember he can still complain afterwards.

 

[sheff1]

It seems that your brother joined a train at a station where ticketing facilities were available. This is illegal and so issuing a Penalty Fare is appropriate, however unfair it might seem.

There are some key words missing there !

 

[Fare-Cop]

Thank you for all of your advice - I will let him know that his best option is to pay.

The question asked by milked doesn't appear to have been answered unless I missed it somewhere.

Which rail company was this?

It might have a bearing on likely responses.

 

[RPI]

A further point is that appeal does not stop the clock on payment and in case of delay of the decision,

Can't speak for other TOC'S but this certainly isn't the case with GWR, once an appeal is received at GWR the clock is in fact stopped

 

[Chrisgr31]

I know the OP says their son was running late but what we dont know is what the definition of running late is. He might have meant to get to the station 15 minutes before the train left and got their 10 minutes before or he might have got there 1 minute before.

I think this is important as the OP said their son couldn't buy a ticket due to the queue. We dont know how long they queued for but it must be unreasonable for you to queue for an hour to buy a ticket, so there must be a point where if you have left sufficient time and the TOC hasnt been able to sell you a ticket you can board a train. Indeed I have seen the twitter team of a TOC tell a passenger to stop queueing and buy a ticket onboard.

What doesnt help though is I have no idea how long it is reasonable to wait. However I understand an answer may exist in the franchise documentation which gives anticipated waking times to buy a ticket. Perhaps if you have to wait longer than those you have a justification for jumping on the train and buying onboard?

 

[island]

The time for raising the question of whether the passenger's travel was authorised by the people "ushering passengers on" would have been by way of an appeal within 21 days of the original Penalty Fare. As the passenger chose not to appeal nor to pay the Penalty Fare, the matter has now escalated and it would be advisable to pay the requested amount before things escalate to a court case and possible criminal record.